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Server Time: 8/28/2008 5:21:02 PM PACIFIC |
 A Question for the Pros, Kymmer, 24. Nov 2003 09:31 | ||
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| To the Seasoned Pros out there: When you started out - how long (if at all) did you experience a negative bankroll before you eventually broke even and then began to create a positive bankroll? And how deep did that negative get before it turned around? What can you identify as the key factor or factors which contributed to your turn around and made poker profitable for you? Thanks in advance! | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Mark Gregorich, 24. Nov 2003 10:14 | ||
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| I won the first couple times I played, and never actually lost that back. I was 18 at the time, and my starting bankroll was $20. Had I lost it, I'm not sure if I would've tried again. I got lucky to win (one key hand I remember from my first session - game was 8/b stud - involved me betting my hand very forcefully and an opponent making some remark to the effect of "I know you have it when you act like that, so I fold"; I showed him out of courtesy, only to reveal that I had misread my hand and couldn't beat his board). Also, prior to my first cardroom session, I spent many hours poring over books such as Super System and a couple others, which I'm sure didn't hurt my chances. Mark | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, timmer, 24. Nov 2003 11:17 | ||
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| Marks and my first experiances are amazingly similar cept I knew I'd keep playing. I actually cleaned out an entire ring in one hand in a dorm game while visiting a nearby university my junior year of high school. now I think some one put a cooler in but some how messed it up. we were playing NL 5 card draw and after the draw I held K's full of J's and took down all the money in the game. I beat feet big time after filling my pockets with that one. Needless to say I always had a funny feeling for poker although my early experiance in casino gambling ran strongly towards blackjack. timmer | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, timmer, 24. Nov 2003 11:09 | ||
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| I am not a high limit player but I have been playing for a number of years. I personally never went negitive. So i feel it largely a matter of good sound playing , skills, and a fair portion of luck. | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Kymmer, 24. Nov 2003 14:51 | ||
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| Thanks for the replies, guys (I was hoping to more responses - but this board is really flying now with lots of discussion - topics get buried pretty quickly now!). My experience is not like yours - I have been playing online for about 7 months. I did well right out of the gate - but then slid down. I've seen my play improve thanks to lots of reading and study and applying what I've learned to my play. I've had short streaks of gains with long streaks of losses to the point that I am once again at -0- . My total 'investment' thus far is a little over $500 - which went mostly to the low-limit tables (none greater than $1/$2) and a dip or two into micro-blind NL. I've played in a few SNGs - winning one, placing in a couple of others and busting out of the rest. Here's my frustration - I love to play, I think I'm average to good and able to continue improving. - but the fact than I am at -0- sure doesn't speak for any skill I may have. My pattern seems to be short streaks of gain with long streaks of loss . Being a novice, I can't gauge if my experience is typical and should l just consider the negative bankroll tuition for the time being, or seriously consider another hobby........ One huge lesson I've learned in regard to online play - be VERY picky about the table you choose. I'm resolved that should I continue to play, I will refuse to play at a table where the skill level is low or (dare I coin a phrase?) what I call the 'Bad Beat Tables' - my losses are due mostly to playing at these types of tables and my gains have come from playing against players who at least have an understanding of odds and outs and respect a pre-flop raise from the SB! My mistake has been in sitting down anyway if those tables were the only ones to choose from..... Again - thanks for your reponse and for allowing me to whine a bit. Any consolation or advise you can lend will be greatly appreciated..... | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Dupree, 24. Nov 2003 15:59 | ||
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| Kymmer: As I am no pro. I do not konw if this is what yuou are looking for, but here ist is... Honestly, I have been playing online for 3 months. I have invested about $350 into my bankroll. My bankroll currently fluctuates between $50 and $300. So yes, I am down, but it has gotten to break-even. I typically play 1/2 ring games with a smiggen of $25 buy-in, .25/.50 games to boot. I typically buy in for $25-35 and am willing to go up to $50 if I get stuck and feel I still have a chance, otherwise I walk. I am only now beginning to realize the importance of table selection. I have sat down at some tables and doubled or quadrupled my stake. Others seem to take me for whatever I let them (never more than $40 at a 1/2 table). I know this is the level for me because the 1/2 stakes, $50 at a time is affordable and I am challenged. I am not consistantly beating the game as evidenced by my bankroll, but I know I am getting better as the first $300 as used to keep things going during my first month and the last 50 I put in was used to absorb the shock in a particurarly bad run. I never needed it, It just created a buffer to keep me from playing with scared money. So what am I saying? Do you see improvment in your game? $500 is not a huge expense over the course of a year. Don't forget that the players are getting better abd better. Our task is to get (and stay) ahead of the learning curve. Dupree | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Hot Allen, 26. Nov 2003 06:16 | ||
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| Kymmer, I picked up something on this post. I started online play about 5 years ago, and back then I played 1/2 and under games as well. What you need to realize about online 1/2 and under games is that they don't happened too often in casino play. these low-low-limit online games have more of a bingo feel then poker. Meaning that you can't expect most strategy and statistics that you've been learning from this site and other poker books to really work to there full potential for you. People play for fun at those levels, and the play is not proper, so you can't put people on hands as easy, or get the right odds to make your proper moves. Personally, I will never play anything under 5/10 online, mostly keeping at 10/20 or 15/30. If you aren't comfortable a these levels yet that's ok. I suggest you work on your tourney play instead. Risking $5 or $10 at time to start off. You'll find the tourney play to be accurate accross all levels, well, more so then games. Also, expect huge swings in poker, it is the element of luck, poker is 90% skill, but it is the luck that determines your swings. As long as you play your best game always, then in the long run your roll will increase. I have days when I'll be up $2500, then the very next I will lose $1500. As long as I can say my play was just as good, then I can blame it on the cards. -Good Luck! | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Kymmer, 26. Nov 2003 06:41 | ||
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| Thanks, Allen. I will keep that in mind. I have actually considered turning more to tournament play - I've played about 7-8 SNGs to date - won 1, 2nd in 1 3rd in 1, 4th in 2.....so I think I could do ok there, but my confidence is not 100%. | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, RonnieB, 26. Nov 2003 07:21 | ||
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| You might consider Poker School Online. You can play a variety of games at minimum investment, $14.95/month. Your results are rated against the other 1700 or so players. You can see where you stand at a fixed cost. They have holdem, stud, and omaha tournaments with Limit, No Limit, and Pot Limit varieties. You use play money but because of the rating system, the play is better. Everyone seems very aware that the result of each tournament is used to calculate their standing. The tournaments at PSO are more challenging than the $5 and $10 tables on Stars. I have been there 6 weeks and played 26 tournaments. My game has improved significantly. I had no experience with big bet poker (NL and PL) so the tournaments were a way to play and learn inexpensively. My NL game looked more like Limit but some hand analysis from Barry Tanenbaum has at least identifed some new approaches to try at NL. You still see some very poor players initially but as the tournament starts reaching the last few tables, the poor players have started dropping away. I work on my game at PSO and then use what I learn on PokerStars. It is still very early in my poker playing life but I am winning consistently in the .25/.50 limit game, the .25/.50 $25.00 buyin NL game and have placed in the money in the last SNG's ($5 & $10). You have been playing longer and may not need this type of help. I just wanted to give another perspective. Good luck Ron | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, ReMMy, 24. Nov 2003 18:54 | ||
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| Kymmer, I have been playing for 3+ years, I don't think I qualify as a pro, depends on what definition you use but here goes: I was always a winner at my home games due to a natural understanding of the game. When I started playing online my bankroll fluctuated quite a bit. I always bought in with $50 and sometimes worked it up as high as $600. Much of this was due in part to trying all sorts of games, but I also moved up in limits way too fast, eventually catching a bad run of cards and going broke. After losing probably a grand over the course of a year, i took a break and when I came back I was reading every website and book I could find. Reading and posting in this forum has been a HUGE help, and since my comeback my bankroll has steadily increased on multiple sites. I don't play above my bankroll anymore and avoid tilting 99% of the time. I have a decent paying job but if I ever get laid off or anything I know I can live off my poker income and bankroll, which is a very comforting thought... Good times, ReMMy | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Piers Majestyk, 24. Nov 2003 19:26 | ||
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| I started playing 9 years ago and fortunately never had a bad early start. After getting barred from the nicest BJ game I think there has ever been in Franklin Lousiana a friend of mine there gave me copy of Sklansky's first Texas Holdem book and told me I should give poker a shot. Well I read it and tried my luck at the riverboats in Baton Rouge. I will have to say that I really missed those games once I moved from the area because they were extremely soft and gave me a good starting place and I met some pretty nice people there as well. Since then I have been more than holding my own in the B&M and on the internet where all of my playing is done now since where I am living is not a hotbed of poker action. I started online at Paradise pretty early on lost a couple of small buy ins before taking off and never looking back in my online foray. I now play mainly at party/empire and have a BB/hr win rate in the 24/36 games that I won't post because it would surely be considered fraudalent but those games are so juicy:) I think the one thing that many beginning players that want to be good are missing is really thinking about and working on their post flop play. It is very easy to play very conservative with extremely good starting hands and then ask yourself why am I still losing to these idiots when I always start with better hands. Well the reason in my opinion is not playing the hand the way that maximizes the pots you win. That is what separates the top notch players and those that just swim around in mediocre or worse results. I am probably one of the tightest players around when it comes to seeing a flop online but I am a world class post flop player and that is where the difference in winning and losing is. Alot of this is not so easily learned in books and will take most people alot of times at the table to get a "feel" for what is the best way to play the hand postflop to maximize your wins or minimize your losses against the current opposition but if you want to do better than being a mediocre player you have to learn this. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Kymmer, 24. Nov 2003 20:34 | ||
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| Piers - could you elaborate a little about your post-flop play? I have attempted to play my good hands aggressively and to not try many or any fancy moves since I am at the low end of the low limits. That said - I know I have a tendency to back down too quickly. I would really like to gain an insight to your strategy. Thank you! (I don't know if I'll ever see the inside of a B&M - class 3 gaming is not leagal here) | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Piers Majestyk, 24. Nov 2003 21:13 | ||
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| That's a pretty daunting task to nutshell my post flop play because it is very situation and opponent dependent but I will try. 1. Many, many, many players fail to value bet on the river which is one area where you just can't leave that extra big bet in someones hand. Ex. you hold AQ on the button and raise and have 4 callers. Flop A104 rainbow, check to you , you bet and get 2 callers, turn 5, check to you and you bet and get one caller, river 4 check to you and you check (WHY?) If the guy CR me with trip 4's or A10 then I am just going to have to pay him off but most of the time he'll turn over some trash like A7 suited or J10, don't let him off the hook for that last bet. 2. Sometimes lead out with the nuts or near nuts! Ex. you call with Q9 in the small blind against one early caller that plays nearly every hand and plays them badly. So you the BB and the caller see the flop of KJ10. Lead out into them and see what happens, if they don't have any of that flop they will have a hard time picking up anything on the turn that will help them but if they do perhaps you will be called or even raised by one or both of them. Then you check the turn and let them bet and then CR and if your lucky the guy with KJ reraises you. Many players just have it in their mind if they think about the game at all that a person should virtually always check the nuts or near nuts and wait for the turn to apply pressure so when you lead out they don't put you on a powerhouse because that's not what you're supposed to do which can allow you to trap them for extra bets. Now in the games I play that may about 3 levels of thinking too high because most of them only see their hand and think very little about other things. 3. Multiway with the button raising and you are in BB with 66, you call and so do 6 others. Flop Q86. Lead out into the field. With that many bets in the pots people on the rail will call looking to connect with something on the turn just to pick up a draw for the river, if the button has an overpair or AQ he will raise, you can then reraise and probably fold off most of those limpers for 2 more bets and you have gained their dead bets and hopefully gotten a big pot heads up or near so with someone that is probably drawing slim to beat you. If you check the flop and then just call all the others are going to call for that 1 bet thereby increasing the chance that someone will pick up some type of draw to gun at you. When the pot gets big do what you can to knock players out. Those are just a few things to think about, hope some of them will help you. When your in a pot don't rush into betting checking or anything else, THINK about how you are going to play this hand to maximize your earnings and your chance to win the pot. As you get more and more experience these things will hopefully just come naturally to you. I have played so many hands in my career that these things just come naturally now and I don't have to think so much about how I should play them because I have faced teh same situation so many times. When you start to dream about hands that you played and you start to see how you could have better played it then you will be getting close. Continued luck and keep thinking. | ||
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| Nice post, Jetfixer, 24. Nov 2003 21:43 | ||
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| Thanks for the post, good stuff! | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, Kymmer, 24. Nov 2003 22:42 | ||
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| Thank you! That is very helpful - one thing I can note off the bat is re-raising. I do not do that enough - barely. As to value betting the river - the only times I check the river is when I have doubt as to whether I'm beat or not. Most times, I value bet. I've also bet/raised the flop &/or the turn to thin the field when the texture warranted it. I've stopped attempting to CR for the most part because at the low levels, too many times free cards are given. I like to get free cards but I hate to give them (sometimes, with a strong draw, I'll raise the flop to get the free card on the turn &, possibly, the river - however at my levels, the players either don't understand checking to the raiser or this move is so over done now it's largely ignored......) . Ennyway - thank you (& everyone else) for your posts - this is enlightening and very helpful. My story thus far...... http://www.kebzweb.com | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, noiseboy, 26. Nov 2003 11:27 | ||
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| In general, try to take a "cross that bridge when I come to it" attitude towards getting raised. If you think you have the best hand, bet, reraise until someone convinces you otherwise, then fold or call down base on pot odds, how tricky the player is, etc... | ||
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| Re: A Question for the Pros, noiseboy, 26. Nov 2003 11:08 | ||
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| I was a winning home game player for years, but when I first made the move to B&M, I lost money. It took a while to adjust, but eventually I started winning. Same deal with online poker, it's just so easy to click on "call" or "raise" when you should be clicking on "fold". It took a while for me to adjust to that along with the lack of any visual reads on my opponents. Online poker has been good for me because I was becoming very dependent on reads and it made me go back and review all the basic strategy stuff. Okay, I'm not pro yet, but I'm planning on doing it within the next year or two, but here is my revelation, which may not be very revelatory if you are already aware of this. The absolute number one determinant of whether you will be successful long term is game selection. You must pick games where you are one of the best players at the table, and also games that you feel comfortable in. The easiest to beat are loose passive games, and in general, you should stick to these for quite some time. Loose aggressive games are more profitable, but the swings are vicious and although you can make bank, they are the most difficult to play in for beginning players because of the many critical decisions which must be made correctly. Good luck, remember that big downswings of 200BB can and do happen, so try to plug the leaks if there are any, but if you are playing better hands than your opponents and they are just getting lucky, then you will eventually get the money. The thing to watch out for is that downswings can self-perpetuate when you start playing weaker because you expect to lose. Analyze your "bad beats" and make sure you didn't contribute by underplaying a big hand because you expected to lose and gave a free/cheap card. If this happens, try taking a few days off and reading your favorite poker books for the twentieth time. For me, rereading all the portions in Super System regarding aggression works as a good "pep talk" to bring me back to speed. | ||
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