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Server Time: 9/6/2008 3:59:55 PM PACIFIC |
 Respect., grant pittman, 24. Nov 2003 09:10 | ||
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| I spend a lot more hours playing online poker than live poker these days. I miss some of the socializing that is present when playing live but there is give and take with both games. I was a police officer before I started playing full time poker and I was a consistent winner playing in the community where I policed. Now, this isn't saying a lot (my competition played poorly in general) but I was happy with my results because I had a major obstacle to overcome when I played in my home town. My table image sucked!!!! People were playing better against me because they were afraid to put a beat on me!!! This had a lot to do with the fact that it was common knowledge that I was a police officer and also that when I entered a pot I wasn't playing garbage. I mixed it up of course but no matter what I did I could never get great action from the loose players like others could. The wild players would just call me with top pair! They would say something like ".....I respect you....anyone else I raise." This was ok for awhile....I mean who doesn't like to be liked right? These guys respect me....I feel good about myself. Then I got to thinking about this situation and realized that respect was great from others in the "real world" but in the poker world it was very different. In poker, you need to understand who respects (or often times fears) you and manipulate the situation so you can play it for profit. It will be necessary, even against a maniac, to play strong hands(top pair etc.) passively if you have "respect status" with him. It will also be necessary to steal pots from tighter players who you have "respect status" with. It can also be very profitable to convey mutual respect to these tight players so you will be able to rob them at a higher frequency than anyone else could ever get away with!!! So the next time someone lays down top pair to you headsup after flashing you the hand and follows it with "I respect you....I know you got me", consider showing the player if you have him beat. Now you will be in a great position to steal from him for some time. In general , it's great to be respected by others but be careful when you are playing poker. Make sure that respect thing isn't costing you more than it's worth. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Respect., SpaceAce, 24. Nov 2003 09:22 | ||
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| You're absolutely right about the way being "respected" effects your game and profit paths. I already use the technique you mention in your message. Often if I take down two or three pots in a row without a showdown I will show my strong hand, especially if my opponent made what was obviously a tough laydown. After they convince themselves to put those cards down and you show them a hand that really did have them beat, it becomes a lot easier for them to lay it down the next time because they are more inclined to believe you have the goods. Once you get them into that frame of mind, you don't really need the goods, anymore. Of course, some people will say that it's better to show bluffs and get more callers when you really have a strong hand but I'd rather have the other players cautious than convinced that I am lying all the time because I think the value of being able to take down pots you couldn't have won otherwise is greater than the value of maybe or maybe not getting an extra call here and there. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: Respect., Barry T, 24. Nov 2003 11:04 | ||
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| Hi, Ace: I know it seems silly, but it is possible to bluff agony. In other words, a long, seemingly agonizing laydown by an opponent could just as easily be him giving up a bluff and wanting it to seem like a tough laydown. After all, if he casually tosses his cards into the muck after, say, raising the turn and getting reraised, it might be obvious he had no problems doing so. A little agony goes a long way. Why, now that I think of it, I might even try it myself sometime. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Respect., SpaceAce, 25. Nov 2003 01:38 | ||
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| You're right, he could be faking the agony but I would still show the cards because it doesn't hurt for him to respect your bets even if he was faking that time. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: Respect., Roy Cooke, 24. Nov 2003 09:36 | ||
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| Hello Mr Grant: I find I get MUCH more respect since writing a column for CardPlayer than I got prior to starting writing....That said, I commanded respect at the table prior to writing although it has continuously grown as I moved up in the magazine... I think if you play in games that bluffing is a realistic play (not in a game where every hand is paid off), playing in a manner in which your opponents make the mistake of folding when they should call is more valuable than them making the error of calling too much. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 24. Nov 2003 09:10 grant pittman wrote: > I spend a lot more hours playing online poker than live poker these days. I miss > some of the socializing that is present when playing live but there is give and > take with both games. I was a police officer before I started playing full time > poker and I was a consistent winner playing in the community where I policed. > Now, this isn't saying a lot (my competition played poorly in general) but I was > happy with my results because I had a major obstacle to overcome when I played > in my home town. My table image sucked!!!! People were playing better against me > because they were afraid to put a beat on me!!! This had a lot to do with the > fact that it was common knowledge that I was a police officer and also that when > I entered a pot I wasn't playing garbage. I mixed it up of course but no matter > what I did I could never get great action from the loose players like others > could. The wild players would just call me with top pair! They would say > something like ".....I respect you....anyone else I raise." This was ok for > awhile....I mean who doesn't like to be liked right? These guys respect me....I > feel good about myself. Then I got to thinking about this situation and realized > that respect was great from others in the "real world" but in the poker world it > was very different. In poker, you need to understand who respects (or often > times fears) you and manipulate the situation so you can play it for profit. It > will be necessary, even against a maniac, to play strong hands(top pair etc.) > passively if you have "respect status" with him. It will also be necessary to > steal pots from tighter players who you have "respect status" with. It can also > be very profitable to convey mutual respect to these tight players so you will > be able to rob them at a higher frequency than anyone else could ever get away > with!!! So the next time someone lays down top pair to you headsup after > flashing you the hand and follows it with "I respect you....I know you got me", > consider showing the player if you have him beat. Now you will be in a great > position to steal from him for some time. In general , it's great to be > respected by others but be careful when you are playing poker. Make sure that > respect thing isn't costing you more than it's worth. Just my thoughts. GRANT > PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Respect, Mr. Pittman., timmer, 24. Nov 2003 10:27 | ||
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| Mr Pittman I have great respect for you. However I would like to offer this one piece of advice. There is this wonderful literary device called a paragraph. This cool little item delineates ideas on a specific topic. It keeps the transfer of ideas flowing smoothly through the written object. It , the paragraph, keeps clutter between topics to a minimum. Such a wonderful thing this "paragraph" is. The paragraph also has many unexpected but serendipitous benefits. It provides a natural place for the reader to pause and reflect upon what he or she has read. Thereby increasing comprehension and retention of the written words and the ideas behind them. The paragraph has the benefit of keeping the reader interested in the writers topics, encouraging him or her to read on . In fact, the paragraph incites sort of a hunger for what is yet to be read. Creative use of the paragraph will help your written words to be better understood and encourage the reader to read completely through your message. I am sure you can see the good that this small but powerful device holds. The dual benefits of your messages being read well and thoroughly understood will undoubtedly ease the dissemination of information between you and your readers. Judicious use of the paragraph will increase the respect your readers hold for you as a purveyor of poker information. I am not a literature teacher. I am not a prolific composer of posts or prose. I will not go into the specifics of paragraph structure. I will however encourage your endeavor to use these helpful devices in the future. Thank you for you consideration on this topic Respectfully yours, timmer | ||
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| Re: Respect, Mr. Pittman., Roy Cooke, 24. Nov 2003 11:15 | ||
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| Hi Timmer Very good point...:-)! Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 24. Nov 2003 10:27 timmer wrote: > Mr Pittman > > I have great respect for you. However I would like to offer this one piece of > advice. > > There is this wonderful literary device called a paragraph. This cool little item > delineates ideas on a specific topic. It keeps the transfer of ideas flowing smoothly > through the written object. It , the paragraph, keeps clutter between topics to a > minimum. Such a wonderful thing this "paragraph" is. > > The paragraph also has many unexpected but serendipitous benefits. It provides a > natural place for the reader to pause and reflect upon what he or she has read. > Thereby increasing comprehension and retention of the written words and the ideas > behind them. The paragraph has the benefit of keeping the reader interested in the > writers topics, encouraging him or her to read on . In fact, the paragraph incites > sort of a hunger for what is yet to be read. Creative use of the paragraph will help > your written words to be better understood and encourage the reader to read > completely through your message. I am sure you can see the good that this small but > powerful device holds. > > The dual benefits of your messages being read well and thoroughly understood will > undoubtedly ease the dissemination of information between you and your readers. > Judicious use of the paragraph will increase the respect your readers hold for you as > a purveyor of poker information. > > I am not a literature teacher. I am not a prolific composer of posts or prose. I > will not go into the specifics of paragraph structure. I will however encourage your > endeavor to use these helpful devices in the future. > > Thank you for you consideration on this topic > > Respectfully yours, > > timmer > | ||
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| Re: Respect, Mr. Pittman., timmer, 24. Nov 2003 11:28 | ||
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| Thanks roy . hope all is well in your camp. timmer | ||
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| Re: Respect, Mr. Pittman., grant pittman, 24. Nov 2003 12:04 | ||
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| Timmer thank you for the advice. I am a little loose with the writing skills mostly because I figured nobody cared how it looked as long as it was right. I have been brought up to speed now. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Respect, Mr. Pittman., timmer, 24. Nov 2003 12:09 | ||
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| Mr. Pittman We are all interested in what you and others have to input. Clarity in writting style is somthing I certainly need to more much harder on. I can assure you that anyone doing so will be greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to make reading your informative posts much simpler and more enjoyable. timmer | ||
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| Re: Respect., timmer, 24. Nov 2003 10:56 | ||
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| Mr. Pittman, Sometimes you have to use the image your dealt. Police officers have a distinct advantage of being a member of one of the few professions where selective aggression is of not only huge benefit but is somewhat prerequiset. This mind set of controlled aggression is a huge benifit for a poker player. By using this mind set in your play you will get plenty of respect from those you often play with. The advantages of this selective aggression are numerious and varied. There are some down sides as well. In fact you might do well to portray a somewhat less imposing and more carefree image. This might help you gain more on the powerful hands you normally play. To ask you to play many weak hands would probably go against your grain and thereby making them into effective plays may take a bit of work, not that it cant be done. These are some of the few downsides to this player type. I would encourage you to read Dr. Schoonmakers book the Psychology of Poker (2+2 publishing) if you have not already done so. It goes into many different archtypes of players including the "tight aggressive" one. It may offer some aforto un mentioned aspects of your own style that you were not aware or making full use of. It is a highly regarded work. One which I often reccomend . timmer | ||
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| Re: Respect., URF, 24. Nov 2003 11:58 | ||
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| I do not think that Grant needs to read that book, which you'll understand if you read his biography. And even I didn't find Schoonmaker's book very informative, and I am only filth on a dirt road compared to Grant (when it comes to poker). That book really was very basic and shallow and really disappointed me. -URF | ||
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| Re: Respect. Dr. Al's Book, timmer, 24. Nov 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Are you insinuating that in many respects a poker players mind set runs concurrent to that of a criminal? If so, and in the vast majority of cases, I couldn't disagree more. As for Dr. Als book, I found it highly informative and insightful. Dr Schoonmaker has done the common player a great deed by offering this book for publication. By detailing a specific organizational tool, Dr. Al has given everyday players a high octane device they may use in categorizing the archetypical player types into smaller and smaller subsets. By going on to describe how to play against not only individual players of these types but groups of players, Dr.Al has done vast numbers of players a huge service in this work. Furthermore, by detailing specific benefits and detractors of each of these styles Dr. Al has done all players an additional service of immeasurable benefit. These few objects which I have described make this book well worth its purchase price Being one with only a basic collegiate level of psychology I could see how one with an advanced degree might find it somewhat mundane. However given the good Dr.'s credentials and taking into account his intended audience I feel it is right on the mark and a worthwhile recomendation. timmer | ||
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| Re: Respect. Dr. Al's Book, URF, 24. Nov 2003 13:47 | ||
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| I don't know what you mean with the "criminal" stuff. I just don't think that someone consistently winning big in $80-$160, and even playing $300-$600, would need to read a fairly basic book about reading opponents. Of course Schoonmaker's (what's with the silly "Dr." - who cares?) book is good if you need to learn the basics, I don't knock that, but I expected more when I bought it, and was disappointed. No need to be a Dr. to write that book. -URF | ||
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| Re: Respect. Dr. Al's Book, timmer, 25. Nov 2003 09:52 | ||
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| You dont need to be internationally published in 8 languages either but in fact the good doctor is. | ||
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| Re: Respect., Barry T, 24. Nov 2003 11:09 | ||
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| Hi, I like everything you said except the showing cards part. I know you think you are reinforcing his great laydown, but in reality you have no idea what message you conveyed. ("Hmmm, last week I showed him my laydown and he just mucked. THis time he shows me his hand. I'll bet he was bluffing last week, that turkey. I'll show him. I'll call him every time from now on.") ("Yup, I knew that tell I had on him was right. When he hitches and then bets, he always has it. The fool even showed it to me. Now I just have to call his bluffs when he doesn't hitch.") Do not show cards. You will still win just as much, maybe more. (Ok, Grant, I do not think it is possible for you to win more, I just meant in general). BarryT | ||
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| Re: Respect., vest besterly, 24. Nov 2003 23:59 | ||
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| Getting back to the earlier discussion of what is a more profitable table image; a loose player that will get more bets toward his Nuts, or a solid/tight player that gets people to lay it down when he doesn't have it. I specifically posted here a little while back that I indended to use a "soft" name for my online image, since I thought that a name too Pro/Down-Home would command too much respect to make once-an-hour big pots profitable. Since I've packed in a voracious two weeks of online poker gaming I've come to the conclusion that I was wrong, but not completely wrong. 1) I use a young girl's name and I always buy in for about 60% of the median table $ roll; this way if I get "pumped up" it still looks like I'm some casual player just "playin with the boys" to any 3rd party onlookers who might join the game. 2) When I raise, no one cares or respects it. They look right passed me. At first I thought this was because I played low-limit, but then I noticed that other players got far more respect for their raises even if my profit exceeded their's. This is an advantageous when you're baiting someone into a Monster; but far more often I was "representing" a hand that I thought should force garbage pairs and the like to lay it down, when in fact they didn't. This has cost me real $$$ in fundemental poker play. 3) Good side of the "soft name" is that when I layed a very calculated beat on another player, instead of them thinking the table sucked and walking away , they tend to stick around, asuming that this "soft" table is libel to pay off sometime... or that they're just "havin fun". And the longer I get a good look at a player the better I clock his playing preferences, and the better I play him as the hands progress (before of course the obligatory 3-4 rocks sit down and spoil it for everyone). 4) Strong table image pays off better than soft image in the long run. I am going to look into changing my user name in the future to something I feel more comfortable with (which is something that someone here suggested awhile back and I chose to ignore) 5) Left-Of-Center online poker observation of the day, mainly to those who are still new like I am. Players who contain variations of the name Hold'Em, Ace, or Texas are more advanced players than others... avoid them. This may sound silly to those who put no bearing in a name, but over the past 2 weeks I have tracked players at a fairly loose Poker site where I would say 50% of the low-limit players were average, or below average. Of the 8 players I tracked with variations of the previously mentioned name plates, all 8 had Red-Flag cautionary comments next to their name I designated (check-raiser, solid hands, only plays the nuts,.. etc.) . And this was enough to where I will no longer sit at tables where those names come up, since after all there's other fish in the sea, and there sure as heck are other poker tables. And I know anyone reading this might think I'm paranoid, but I typically assume that a higher limit player is just now coming off a game of 25/50, and has decided to "cool off" at a 1/2 for awhile, eveytime I see these people sit down. So if you're staring into the eye of "Texas1944" in a showdown, and you're not sure if you should call him, I say err on the side of caution and live to fight another day... lay it down. | ||
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