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Server Time: 10/15/2008 3:34:24 PM PACIFIC |
 Do I bring it on myself?, Ian J, 21. Nov 2003 22:26 | ||
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| I started playing the 25 NL cash games at UB lately and my bankroll is suffering because of it. I've lost multiple all-in pots. Here's my hand from today, any advice/comments would be appreciated. Background, I had just played a hand with the opponent in question the hand before where I held AK, flopped an A and forced him to lay down. Very next hand I get TsTc in the big blind. There are about 6 limpers for .25 to me. Not wanting to play it multi-way, I raise to 1.75. Only the EP in question calls. Right now I'm putting him on Ax or a middle pair. The flop is 2 6 4 all spades. I lead for about 2.50 into a 5 dollar pot. He comes over the top all-in for 10 more. I think about it and put him on one spade because I don't think he would make this play with a flopped flush. I decide to call, he shows the A8 of spades for the nut flush. This sort of thing is happening over and over in the NL tables. Thanks for advice. | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, Aisthesis, 22. Nov 2003 01:01 | ||
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| On that flop, I think calling the all-in is a clear mistake unless the guy is a known bluffer. That flop is just too scary. The one improvement it offers on your hand is that you have an overpair. And while your 1/2 pot bet is just enough to make the odds wrong for a flush draw, I think you could have actually saved money (given your pre-flop raise) by yourself betting the pot. In my experience at the $25 tables, people will almost always fold against that bet unless they really have a hand. Hence, if they call or raise (again, barring known bluffers, and I really don't run into any who are willing to raise a pot-size bet on a bluff), you need to really watch out. Basically the pot-size bet gives a lot more clarification on your opponent's holdings, I think. Pre-flop, until recently, I probably would have played the hand the way you did--with a raise designed to take the hand heads-up. But lately, I've been much more inclined to play pocket pairs like that in multi-way pots--your hand is a good example of the risks involved in raising them. And in multi-way pots you're always getting back much more if you win for every dollar you risk. TT has a decent chance of being overpair, with multiple players you would have been more sensitive to the possibility of the flush, and if you can flop a set you have good chances to win big. Anyhow, I don't necessarily think a pre-flop raise designed to thin out the competition is wrong, but I'm liking the other way of playing lowish or medium-strong pocket pairs better. While you win less frequently with them, you risk a lot less. And sometimes you can even pick up a really big pot when you make the set. | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, jaustin, 22. Nov 2003 16:09 | ||
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| Even if you are correct and he has a hand like AsJh - the hand is still only about a coinflip (and I think he has the advantage). If you're wrong you're either drawing to runner-runner (if he has the flush) or a two-outer if he has a higher pair or made trips on the flop. Unless you have a good read on him and have reason to think he's likely bluffing, folding is the right option. | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, Barry T, 22. Nov 2003 21:16 | ||
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| Hi. I think you misunderstand the essential point of no limit. This form of poker is not about winning the pot; it is about avioding losing your money on second best hands. (Am I advocating scared poker? Not really, but sort of). In limit, if you throw away a winner, you have made a terrible mistake. In no limit, itis correct to throw away winners all day, if that is what it takes. The idea is to bust your opponet when you have way the best of it (like you flop a set of tens on an AT8 flop in your example), not to defend a marginal holding against a big bet. You are gambling, and most gamblers are losers at NL. In your erxample, say you win it. Later the same thing happens again. you do the same thing and this time you lose. Well, you have still lost your stack. In limit you might be ahead after two of these because of the other mney in the pot. But in no limit, you are just broke. I hope this helps. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, Ian J, 22. Nov 2003 23:25 | ||
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| Barry, I've been struggling at no limit for awhile now and I've been asking for advice from people I know and on this forum and you are the first person to hit the nail on the head for me personally. What you just described makes absolute sense and I think I've realized that my fundamental thinking when playing no limit cash games was flawed. Thank you very much for your help. | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, Barry T, 23. Nov 2003 00:11 | ||
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| Hi. I appreciate your note. I am happy to have helped you. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, shorn, 25. Nov 2003 07:36 | ||
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| Barry- Great way of explaining it. Steve | ||
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| Re: Do I bring it on myself?, shorn, 25. Nov 2003 07:34 | ||
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| You should have folded to his all in. Your TT is not that great for that board, even if you hold a spade. The key ti winning in these games is to show aggression but back off and don't call all-in without the nuts or a good draw o the nuts. You had neither here. Sure, he could have been bluffing, but is your hand strong enough to win even if he is? there aren't very many players out there who will make that move with absolutely nothing and no draw to a bigger hand. The only hands that I would have considered calling his bet with here are KK (with K spades), AA (with A spades), a set of 4's or a set of 6's. That is it. Fold more often and you will see your results improve. | ||
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