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Server Time: 10/11/2008 6:21:08 AM PACIFIC |
 You guys crack me up!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Nov 2003 06:11 | ||
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| First of all, I need to say that this post is in no way directed at any certain person or certain post. I am a consistent profitable NLHE player and I'm simply stating my opinion, not trying to offend anyone. I'm sure many will disagree with this, but hopefully it will open some eyes as well. I think it is sooo funny when people get way caught up in EV and odds. Sure it is good to know and sure, it CAN help you to make a calling or betting decision. But that is all, it CAN help you sometimes, but does not mean that this makes you profit. It means WAY less than what people make it out to be. I'm not saying that you should not have an understanding of pot odds, implied odds, EV, etc. What I am saying is that, this does not help you near as much as what I like to call "Tuning into a game" What I mean by tuning is paying very close attention to every little detail. B&M and online are 2 totally different animals. When playing online, I believe it is very important to keep a pen and paper, to make quick notes as you play. Write down what people are calling with and raising with pre-flop. Make notes on who tried to buy the pot with 2nd pair high kicker, or who over bets the draws, etc, etc. Pay attention to who are the calling station and chip stacks and position. ALL of these things are WAY more important than knowing and calculating so called "important odds" and "EV". Again, I stress that I am not putting down those who use EV and odds to their advantage (I am one of them), but simply stating that people put too much thought into it. I have seen some pretty incredible posts and topics on this forum that are so irrelevant to being profitable at poker. The funny thing is that, so many of you join in, and want to give your 2 cents on figuring out the equation or expressing your opinion on the correct odds or EV. Let me tell you, this means absolutely nothing when it comes to making money. If you spent as much time reading and studying your oppenents and betting styles as you do trying to figure out your odds, or EV.....you CAN and WILL be a more profitable poker player. When I started playing poker I was real big into the math side of it. Being a math guy all of my life, I figured I could beat the game with odds and statistical decisions. Boy did I get a rude awakening! It wasn't until I picked up a few books, played thousands and thousands of cash hands, and starting "Tuning In" to my tables, when I started to beat the game. My main point here is that beating this game is SOOO much more about beating your OPPONENT than it is beating the odds. Odds can help you to make a critical call when you think you have a good read on your opponent. If the game was played with everyones whole cards being dealt face up, THEN it would be a game of odds. But they aren't, so START thinking outside of your own 2 cards and work on figuring out what other people hold in their hands. STOP thinking of how many outs you have and your EV, and START thinking about how can I make this person fold or how can I make this person call me or bet into me. STOP thinking about what level these 2 hole cards rank in and looking at your chart to call or not, and START thinking about chipstacks and postition and what people are in the hand already. STOP thinking about numbers and how many chips you have, and START being CONFIDENT in your game and your reads. STOP spending your time at the table calculating adds and EV and START TUNING IN to your table and pay attention to every single detail about every single player. The simple math and outs that do help you, will come natural. START THINKING ABOUT HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT THIS GAME!! | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, stein, 21. Nov 2003 06:32 | ||
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| Your point holds moderate validity; yet it misses the point. You can *only* be profitable if you make decisions and actions with a +EV! This is your goal in every pot you play! It is always relevant! Your point merely highlights one mechanism in which you obtain this +EV decision - observing the players. These observations, however, are simply *one* factor which determines whether your move has a +EV. Other factors are, amongst others, your pot and implied odds. Never underestimate the importance of Expected Value. If yours is not positive, your not a winner. Its as simple as that. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Nov 2003 07:15 | ||
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| I didn't want to get a lot of arguement out of this, but we are all entitled to our opinion. I feel that you are right to an extent, but perhaps you might be missing "my" point a little. EV is a term. The word "expected" means simply that, what you Expect to get out of each pot, not what you will get out of a certain pot. If you play based off of EV every single hand, thinking only in terms of odds, and how often will this pot pay off if I play these cards, then you are sheltering yourself from some very important aspects of this beautiful game. Just because you have a +EV does not mean that you will make money. A positive EV is only expected, not earned. On the other hand, if you are concentrating on your reads and your opponents aspect of the game, you can make that call or raise when your EV may be negative according to the odds. You have to know when to take that gamble when you don't have the best EV or the best hand. If you know your opponent, you can buy those pots, or get out when you know you are beat and the opponent will call or raise. Again, EV is important I agree. You have to expect to make money, or why would you be playing. But, you have to make those important risky calls or bluffs to make a lot of money at this game. Even if this means that you may not have huge positive EV, but you think there is a decent chance you can outplay someone. My post wasnt directed at EV as much as it was calculating odds and all the statistical junk people get into regarding what hands to play and outs and all that. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, ReMMy, 21. Nov 2003 07:47 | ||
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| I agree with what you're getting at Nutzy... When I go to make a bluff on the river, I'm not going to bother coming up with something like "well I think my opponent will fold 34% of the time) and the pot is laying me 4 to 1 odds blah blah blah. Do I think I have a decent chance of moving him off his hand, and is the play about break even or profitable? What is my table image, and what will making the play do to my table image? Thats really all I care about. I never bother with figuring out exacts odds even though I'm a math geek as well. I simply like to know that 3 other players in the hand with me when I'm drawing to a nut flush gives me positive odds for a raise, who cares if its 1.3 BB's or 1.5BB's or whatever... | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Nov 2003 07:49 | ||
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| It's great to see someone on my level of thinking here. Thanks for the reassurance that I am not a complete idiot Remmy. You are absolutley right. -FlopDaNutz I'm not a player I just MUCK a lot! | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, ReMMy, 21. Nov 2003 08:05 | ||
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| hehe, NP, although I do find it more useful in limit games than NL. And there is something fun about figuring out the odds, its just the posts that analyze their play by saying things like: Well I was a 65% Fav, then after the flop I was 75% fav, then after the turn I was 94% fav, but he still paid for that last card, AND WON!!! lol Who cares, it can all be summed up by saying, I played correctly and got sucked out on someone with 2 outs. Good times, ReMMy | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Snorbolus, 21. Nov 2003 09:46 | ||
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| This is a classic example of misunderstanding because of fuzzy definitions of words: When I go to make a bluff on the river I don't calculate the odds that my opponent will fold but I do consider how likely my opponent is to fold . How are these two things different? Snorbolus on 21. Nov 2003 07:47 ReMMy wrote: > I agree with what you're getting at Nutzy... > > When I go to make a bluff on the river, I'm not going to bother coming up with something like > "well I think my opponent will fold 34% of the time) and the pot is laying me 4 to 1 odds blah > blah blah. > > Do I think I have a decent chance of moving him off his hand, and is the play about break even > or profitable? What is my table image, and what will making the play do to my table image? > > Thats really all I care about. I never bother with figuring out exacts odds even though I'm a > math geek as well. I simply like to know that 3 other players in the hand with me when I'm > drawing to a nut flush gives me positive odds for a raise, who cares if its 1.3 BB's or 1.5BB's > or whatever... | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Easy E, 21. Nov 2003 08:58 | ||
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| "Just because you have a +EV does not mean that you will make money" The reverse being, just because you have -EV doesn't mean that you will lose money.... and I think you're very wrong here, with two caveats: 1) If you are JUST looking at EV calculations as hand odds, then you're not doing what you are supposed to do (I don't think you are, nor am I sure that EV is the proper term for combining ALL of the odds that are involved) 2) Calculating the "best" action from a "this hand in isolation" perspective DOES have value AND validity.... but it is limited as well. Where it is valid- if you try to use other game aspects to justify trying to overcome difficult hand situations, reasoning that your other poker skills will constantly allow you to make dogs winners, then you're either in the weakest game in the world, or you're destined to get your comeuppance. Also, analyzing a hand based on probabilities, ESPECIALLY in big-bet poker- without allowing the extraneous influences of a poker game to distort the base requirements of hand vs. pot odds- can often reveal problems in your game and/or give you other ideas on playing that hand in that type of card/pot situation. Those ways of playing it may be more profitable, or less costly, than the way in which you chose to play the hand based on the other factors. However, if people only play from a perspective of what the hand vs pot/implied odds are, they are NOT taking into consideration everything that should be considered for a TRUE "EV" calculation (nor, probably, could they- how do you tie a read to a precise number, Mike Caro's book notwithstanding?) There IS a best play, in my opinion, for every hand... and you may even be able to calculate the exact percentages, if you could assign the "correct" percentage to a LOT of the non-math components of poker (such as table image, recent actions, player moods, future tools to use later in the night, blah blah blah)... but it is not JUST the pot odds/hand odds calculations. Maybe we should call it Game Expected Value Theorum , or GEVT... which reads like "give it (the pot, to me)" -say it out loud once, soft "e" sound. Without a lot of detail, a summary might be: --------- What is the chance that, in THIS situation, with this hand, AND given the past factors and future effects of my play that affect this situation, that this way of playing the hand has a) a positive expected return and b) is the BEST expected return? Now, what is the best way to play the hand over time, when ALL of the factors that are involved may not be EXACTLY the same as they are RIGHT NOW? -------- I think that, if you DON'T use hand-pot calculations as the base for this, it becomes too easy (you'd think I wouldn't be against something "Easy") to justify incorrect play because "oh, I knew he'd fold, so the math doesn't matter". That might be true RIGHT NOW, but you also have to take the hand and say, if I ALWAYS played it in this manner, would it ALWAYS be true? It all leads back to the "this is one hand, but I'm playing a poker GAME" theory. If you play the current hand in a manner that is technically sub-optimal, but you do so for other reasons related to your overall game success, then it might be the greater "GETV" play.... but if you stray too far from the theoretical EV of a hand, you're giving up more than you are gaining. I personally think big-bet poker is the game which allows people to mistakenly sneer at the "best math" play of a hand... while allowing them to get AWAY with violating that "principle" in the short term (meaning, this game and maybe a few after it) without too much real harm. Well, a lot of rambling, but little concrete substance. Chew away... | ||
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| For a short concise version of GEVT, Easy E, 21. Nov 2003 09:06 | ||
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| see johnph77's post. That's basically what I'm talking about | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Mark, 21. Nov 2003 11:37 | ||
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| Hey Nutz I disagree with your line of reasoning, but i think its due to your (maybe my) definition of EV. My thoughts are below. > I didn't want to get a lot of arguement out of this, this is a good topic to discuss, though. but we are all entitled to our > opinion. I feel that you are right to an extent, but perhaps you might be missing "my" > point a little. > EV is a term. The word "expected" means simply that, what you Expect to get out of each > pot, not what you will get out of a certain pot. > If you play based off of EV every single hand, thinking only in terms of odds, and how > often will this pot pay off if I play these cards, then you are sheltering yourself from > some very important aspects of this beautiful game. I think EV(expected value) is more than just odds and it should dictate how you play every hand. EV encompasses every bit of information relating the hand, including odds, player profiles, your reads/control of the table, others on tilt, etc. If you somehow knew that you were heads up against AKo and held 45o, at first glance EV says you should fold. But if you had a good read on your opponent and know you can bluff him out of a pot if he doesn't make a pair, than your EV changes accordingly. It does not stay fixed on the win %. By having solid reads your EV changes. The more info you have, the more accurately you can estimate EV. > Just because you have a +EV does not mean that you will make money. +EV's will produce profit in the long run. A positive EV is > only expected, not earned. But over the long run, your earned money will equal the expected. On the other hand, if you are concentrating on your reads and > your opponents aspect of the game, you can make that call or raise when your EV may be > negative according to the odds. This is the flaw in your line of reasoning and its due to your definition of EV. Your reads do affect EV. If you have solid tells and reads on an opponent, almost any hand can have a +EV. What you are talking about above are + EV situations. You have to know when to take that gamble when you don't > have the best EV or the best hand. If you know your opponent, you can buy those pots, Again, these are + EV situations. or > get out when you know you are beat and the opponent will call or raise. > Again, EV is important I agree. You have to expect to make money, or why would you be > playing. But, you have to make those important risky calls or bluffs to make a lot of > money at this game. Even if this means that you may not have huge positive EV, but you > think there is a decent chance you can outplay someone. > My post wasnt directed at EV as much as it was calculating odds and all the statistical > junk people get into regarding what hands to play and outs and all that. EV can dictate all these situations you are describing: when to bluff or semi-bluff, steal blinds, value bet, etc. If you knew every peice of information, you could come up with the exact EV of any hand. Obviously, this is impossible in real life. All you can do is estimate the most accurate EV depending on the information you have. This is exactly what you are talking about and doing above. You are willing to make those plays (you described above) because you feel they will show you a profit in the long run. What you did was calculate a very general EV (simply positive or negative) with the information you had and acted based on that decision, even though you didn't call it EV. Mark | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, johnph77, 21. Nov 2003 08:08 | ||
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| Both the mathemetical and psychological approaches have relevancy and meaning in a poker game. Both are tools to becoming a successful poker player. The catch is knowing when to attach more weight to one side or the other. The math aces, being more introspecive and less emotional, will generally be more successful as they are more likely to be able to hold a good poker face. Peeing in your pants doesn't count until and unless you stand up. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Nov 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Another good point, thanks john. I do agree that both perspectives have importance. Although I dont think the math side of it weighs as much as the read side. You are correct though, sometimes you need to be able to fall back on odds to make a decision, I do this when I feel I dont have a good read on an opponent, or to help me make a very questionable call. The peeing the pants thing I can relate to. I drizzled the other day when I had over $400 on the line. Let me share with you real quick. Im at Party Poker at the NL $100 table with 10 people. I am dealt Ks9s in EP and limp in for $2. It is raised to $4 and we get 3 limpers, comes to me and I call. I have a stack of $395...the raiser has just over $500 and the other callers had just bought in and were all around $100. Flop comes out 10c Jc Qs. I check to see where the others stand. Raiser bets $40 and it is folded to me. I decide to raise to see where this guy really stands. Either he has me beat with AK or is playing a pair with A kicker which gives him a STR draw. Another very good possiblilty is that he has 2 clubs one of them possibly being an A giving him a flush/inside STR draw which is what I put him on. My reads have been very good on this player thus far, and I know he loves to bet his draws. I trust my read and reraise to $120. He only calls, AK he would have prob put me all-in. Keeping in mind, I can still hit the runner runner flush myself. Turn comes 3c. I couldn't have asked for a better card. I lead out with a $75 knowing that I know am on a FL draw, I feel more confident. He only calls, once again. River, was 7d and if I was right, he didn't hit his draw, and I lead out with $50. I just want to keep him in at this point, i figure he is already a few hundred in the pot, he will call another 50. I was wrong....he raised me all in. HMM...could he have been slow playing AK this whole time. I seriously doubt it! HAHA. I trust my read, but have a terrible time hitting the call button. Something has me scared, but I just can't lay this STR down. I am up big on another table so I figured, I would give it a go. With my heart racing and a few seconds to act, I call all-in and he turns over his AcQc. I hit the nail on the head and take down an absolute monster pot! He tells me what a good call I made, and I threw the smiley face in the chat window and cashed out. | ||
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| You screwed up your story, I believe, Easy E, 21. Nov 2003 09:05 | ||
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| on 21. Nov 2003 08:32 FlopDaNutz wrote: I am dealt Ks9s in EP and limp in for $2. It is raised to $4 and > we get 3 limpers, comes to me and I call. I have a stack of $395...the raiser has just > over $500 and the other callers had just bought in and were all around $100. Flop comes > out 10c Jc Qs. (TWO CLUBS) Turn comes 3c. (THREE CLUBS) > I couldn't have asked for a better card. I lead out with a $75 knowing that I know am > on a FL draw, (WHAT FLUSH DRAW? 6 CARD POKER, MAYBE?) I feel more confident. He only calls, once again. River, was 7d and if I > was right, he didn't hit his draw, and I lead out with $50. With my heart racing and a few > seconds to act, I call all-in and he turns over his AcQc (THIS IS CLUBS FOUR AND FIVE, HE WINS). I hit the nail on the head and > take down an absolute monster pot! He tells me what a good call I made, and I threw the > smiley face in the chat window and cashed out. ...which, of course, you wouldn't have been doing if you hadn't mistyped the hand. Obviously the 3c was supposed to be the 3s... unless your flush draw comment was wrong? | ||
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| Re: You screwed up your story, I believe, FlopDaNutz, 21. Nov 2003 10:51 | ||
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| You are right..it was 3s giving me the fl draw and not helping him, thanks for pointing that out. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Snorbolus, 21. Nov 2003 08:16 | ||
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| You are right of course, one does not need to have a full understanding of EV to play winning poker. However, to discuss poker ideas it really helps if everybody knows the definition of the words that we use to describe different ideas. Otherwise you run the risk of arguing at length about something or other only to find that you agreeed all along but were misunderstanding each other. Worse still you may find yourself persuaded by an arguement but then end up making bad decisions because of a misunderstanding about some important concept. Snorbolus on 21. Nov 2003 06:11 FlopDaNutz wrote: > First of all, I need to say that this post is in no way directed at any certain > person or certain post. I am a consistent profitable NLHE player and I'm simply > stating my opinion, not trying to offend anyone. I'm sure many will disagree > with this, but hopefully it will open some eyes as well. > > I think it is sooo funny when people get way caught up in EV and odds. > Sure it is good to know and sure, it CAN help you to make a calling or betting > decision. But that is all, it CAN help you sometimes, but does not mean that > this makes you profit. It means WAY less than what people make it out to be. > I'm not saying that you should not have an understanding of pot odds, implied > odds, EV, etc. What I am saying is that, this does not help you near as much > as what I like to call "Tuning into a game" > What I mean by tuning is paying very close attention to every little > detail. B&M and online are 2 totally different animals. When playing online, > I believe it is very important to keep a pen and paper, to make quick notes as > you play. Write down what people are calling with and raising with pre-flop. > Make notes on who tried to buy the pot with 2nd pair high kicker, or who over > bets the draws, etc, etc. Pay attention to who are the calling station and chip > stacks and position. ALL of these things are WAY more important than knowing > and calculating so called "important odds" and "EV". > Again, I stress that I am not putting down those who use EV and odds to their > advantage (I am one of them), but simply stating that people put too much > thought into it. > I have seen some pretty incredible posts and topics on this forum that are > so irrelevant to being profitable at poker. The funny thing is that, so many of > you join in, and want to give your 2 cents on figuring out the equation or > expressing your opinion on the correct odds or EV. > Let me tell you, this means absolutely nothing when it comes to making > money. If you spent as much time reading and studying your oppenents and > betting styles as you do trying to figure out your odds, or EV.....you CAN and > WILL be a more profitable poker player. > When I started playing poker I was real big into the math side of it. Being a > math guy all of my life, I figured I could beat the game with odds and > statistical decisions. Boy did I get a rude awakening! > It wasn't until I picked up a few books, played thousands and thousands of > cash hands, and starting "Tuning In" to my tables, when I started to beat the > game. > My main point here is that beating this game is SOOO much more about > beating your OPPONENT than it is beating the odds. Odds can help you to make a > critical call when you think you have a good read on your opponent. > If the game was played with everyones whole cards being dealt face up, THEN > it would be a game of odds. But they aren't, so START thinking outside of your > own 2 cards and work on figuring out what other people hold in their hands. > STOP thinking of how many outs you have and your EV, and START thinking about > how can I make this person fold or how can I make this person call me or bet > into me. STOP thinking about what level these 2 hole cards rank in and looking > at your chart to call or not, and START thinking about chipstacks and postition > and what people are in the hand already. STOP thinking about numbers and how > many chips you have, and START being CONFIDENT in your game and your reads. > STOP spending your time at the table calculating adds and EV and START TUNING IN > to your table and pay attention to every single detail about every single > player. The simple math and outs that do help you, will come natural. > START THINKING ABOUT HOW TO MAKE MONEY AT THIS GAME!! | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Mark Barnett II, 21. Nov 2003 09:34 | ||
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| this is kinda what i was meaning about my comments in the 54o discussion, sticking like glue to what you read in a book or strictly odds might allow you to be a winner but you are missing out on alot of potential *although that specific hand probably wasnt the best place to think/post of it* Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Schuster, 21. Nov 2003 10:53 | ||
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| "The reccurring sum of edge times volume bet equals earn." This is EV. And generally, when I say something has a -EV, I am doing my best to consider all the extra factors available to me, not just the odds and the math. Maybe others are different, but that's the way I run. Lee | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Mark Barnett II, 21. Nov 2003 11:51 | ||
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| good grief something must be wrong with me lately cause i even want to argue about the scemantics of your reoccuring statement *but im biting my fingers :-)* Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Phish, 21. Nov 2003 11:06 | ||
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| I agree to a certain extent. If you're in the middle of a hand and counting the pot trying to determine your odds, then you are simply wasting everybody's time. But a full knowledge of the math of the game is essential when you're first starting out, in order to help you devise a proper basic strategy. By basic strategy, I mean a solid way of playing that you can set on auto-pilot most of the time. It means how and what to play preflop, should you call for the gut-shot and when, how many players should there be for you to make a value raise with a flush draw, heads-up should you keep raising with a 15-outer, etc. These general rules should be drilled into you, and if they're calculated correctly, you can beat all games up to 20/40 just playing autopilot with this basic strategy. And math is the solid foundation for this strategy. And as Malmuth has said, if your basic strategy is a little flawed, you can make it up in other areas (hand-reading, tells, etc), but if your basic strategy is fundamentally flawed, you will lose, plain and simple. But once you have a fundamentally sound basic strategy down, the nit-picking about the minutiae isn't worth a lot. Whether there's eight bets in the pot or 7.5, will you get 2 extra bets or 1 if you hit, should you limp with AA, etc. isn't really worth worrying about. At that point, you can increase your profits tremendously more by focusing on other areas of the game, as flopdanutz has said. I would say that as a general rule, if you're still asking questions about how to play a hand pre-flop after a year of playing, then you have not advanced nearly as much as you should've. And if you're sitting there counting your number of outs and calculating your pot odds, you are wasting everybody's time. If it's that close, then it probably doesn't matter much either way and you'd be better off focusing on other areas. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, Aisthesis, 22. Nov 2003 00:27 | ||
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| I think Phish is right on the money here. Over-emphasis on odds (and basic play strategies) is no doubt characteristic of a certain level in poker (currently my own). I feel pretty sure that most of the top players here rarely have to even think about that kind of stuff any more because it's just not a leak and they already have a "tried and true" strategy or set of strategies and hence can concentrate mainly on fine-tuning their reads on opponents and devising new ways of capitalizing on opponents' leaks, betting patterns, etc. I'm guessing the latter is really going to be the reason why one top-level player wins just a little more often than another. But many of us are still working on just getting the basics down and avoiding completely idiotic mistakes. So please don't laugh too hard when we ask a lot of stupid questions that you folks must have also asked and answered many years ago!! :) Actually, what I really like about this place is that it's a really good mix of all levels of players who are willing to share their insights. | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, johnph77, 22. Nov 2003 08:26 | ||
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| And, what's more, conduct the discussion without rancor and disrespect for the most part. UPF seems to be a place where everyone's opinions and theories can be aired without a lot of ridicule, and this thread is a prime example. Intelligence and a sense of "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" are the rule rather than the exception. Makes one look forward to reading the new posts. Thanks, all. | ||
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| Poker = Information + Math, URF, 21. Nov 2003 21:37 | ||
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| Poker consists of two distinct activities: * Gathering information * Using that information to make good playing decisions The quality of your decisions cannot be better than the information that you base them on. Information gathering is the hardest to learn (for most), and therefor the weakest point in most players game, and therefore where the most is to gain for most players. But you must also know what to do with the information that you gather, and what information is important in your decision-making process, so that you gather the right information. Math / logic is never wrong - but it is never better than the premises that it is based on. And in poker those premises are the information that you gather. And then there is the fact that our minds are not naturally functioning in a mathematical manner, and not quick enough to make much of explicit mathematical / logical calculations at the table. To be able to make good decisions quickly at the table, our brains must be taught to make many automated, subconcious calculations of a different kind than those that we make conciously when we think about a hand away from the table. But that thinking away from the table, along with experience (if we concentrate on it), is what trains those subconcious routines. And the concious routines that we use there too, for that matter. You can be good at something without knowing the theoretical side. Ask a bird about aerodynamics if you don't believe me. But that does not mean that you should knock the theoreticians. Jumbo jets have their strong sides too. And +EV is either wrongly calculated (perhaps using faulty information) or money in your pocket. I'm not sure to what degree we agree or disagree, but I thought that I should express these things the way I see them. URF | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, LJH, 22. Nov 2003 03:50 | ||
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| DEAR FL0P, WELL GOOD FOR YOU. IF YOU THINK SO LITTLE OF US WHY DO YOU BOTHER TO COME TO THIS FORUM. LJH | ||
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| Re: You guys crack me up!, FlopDaNutz, 24. Nov 2003 08:59 | ||
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| LJH, you just had to say that didn't you? Does it make you feel better? I was in no way whatsoever putting anyone down and you seem to be the only person that feels this way. I would have rather you not added your thoughts to this post. Thanks | ||
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