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Server Time: 11/20/2008 1:33:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Q5...What would you do?, mkpoker, 20. Nov 2003 19:15 | ||
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| This is a hypothetical hand, intended to spark some discussion about how to act when you catch a piece of the flop...but not a very good piece...from the blind. Personally, these kinds of situations get me into trouble. For argument's sake, assume there are average players at your table, a 15/30 game. From the SB you're dealt Qd5d. EP and 2 MP players limp to you. Because it costs only 1/3 of a bet to call (and your hand isn't totally horrible), you call. BB checks and you take the flop 5-handed. Flop comes QT6 rainbow, giving you top pair, weak kicker. What do you do? What if the flop were QJ9 (slightly more threatening), would that change your strategy? What if the flop were KQ6, giving you 2nd pair instead of top pair? I think I'd check in all these circumstances and see how other players reacted before deciding whether to stay in. What would you do? | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Schuster, 20. Nov 2003 19:24 | ||
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| I'd check and likely fold to any bet with all these flops. Two broadway cards means that if I'm ahead, there's many many outs against me, and it's very unlikely I'm ahead against 3 limpers. People tend to limp with hands that have jacks and queens. If it's the puck that bets, I may raise if I thought he would bet second pair, a draw, or worse in that spot. The pot is small with only 5 bets in it, and it's not worth getting trapped up with a bad kicker for a small pot. Lee | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Phish, 20. Nov 2003 20:31 | ||
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| I tend to mix it up. Sometimes I would bet, and sometimes check and see what develops. If it goes check, check, bet behind me, I'd almost certainly raise. if it's bet, call, fold, I'd probably call and see what develops on the turn. if its bet, raise i'd probably fold. I think automatically checking and folding is way too weak a play. If you're going to do that, why even bother completing the small blind since this is about as good a flop as you can reasonably get with this hand against 3 opponents. Yeah, sometimes I get trapped. A similar hand this weekend cost me a bundle when I improved to 2-pair on the turn. But there are plenty of times when a hand like this was the best hand all the way. | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Schuster, 20. Nov 2003 21:12 | ||
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| I'm calling because with the 2 chips 3 chip structure, that's 14 to 1 after 3 limpers, with only the BB left to act. I'm looking to flop hard or get out. Don't get me wrong, if the flop was something like Q-7-4, I'd be much more inclined to play, but with 2 broadway cards, it's just not worth the trouble of making a second best hand, and when if I am ahead, it's a drawout is much more likely. And if I am outkicked, I'm drawing to 3 outs. Not so good. When I complete in the 2/3 blind structures, I'm really looking to flop hard... 2 pair, trips, or a flush draw in this case. With a coordinated flop like that with a small pot, I'm not going to get involved most of the time. Lee | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Phish, 23. Nov 2003 20:33 | ||
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| Mason Malmuth wrote in a recent article something to the effect: If the flop is Q94 and you're on the button and everyone checks to you, you should bet your T9, and it's not even a close decision. And I believe the consensus is that he's right. Now if you have someone who routinely makes this play, but you, on the other hand, routinely checks and folds Q5 in this situation. Who do you think is going to wind up with all the money at the end of the year? With few exceptions, I find much too much of the advice given on this board to be way too weak tight for effective winning play. No good players I know play like that. Seems these advice are devised to not lose money too fast rather than to win. | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Schuster, 23. Nov 2003 21:24 | ||
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| The difference is that you're in good position in a raised multiway pot with the T9, and you're in bad position in a smallish unraised pot with your Q5. If you knew your Q5 was behind, it would not be correct to play, but it is still correct to play the T9 for one bet when the pot is that large. I may get involved with the Q5 anyway if the pot is not too coordinated, but if there's a queen and a ten out there, there's a lot of draws, combined with the fact that I might be drawing to 3 outs, makes me more inclined to save my money for a better spot. That isn't to say I won't get involved anyway, but I won't be chomping at the bit to do so. If that's weak tight, then I guess you can label me such. Lee | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, mkpoker, 23. Nov 2003 21:24 | ||
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| Huge difference between Mason's scenario and mine. In Mason's you're on the button and it's checked to you. In mine, you're in the blind and are acting first on the flop. Instead of having the best position at the table, you have the worst. Obviously, from the button you gain the distinct advantage of seeing how other players respond to the flop. When no one shows any interest, it's an easier decision to bet out. Acting first, you're much more in the dark. | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Phish, 24. Nov 2003 10:55 | ||
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| on 23. Nov 2003 21:24 mkpoker wrote: > Huge difference between Mason's scenario and mine. In Mason's you're on the button and it's checked to > you. In mine, you're in the blind and are acting first on the flop. Instead of having the best position > at the table, you have the worst. > > Obviously, from the button you gain the distinct advantage of seeing how other players respond to the > flop. When no one shows any interest, it's an easier decision to bet out. Acting first, you're much > more in the dark. If your position in this hand bothers you that much, you can always just check blind and see what happens. That way, you'd gain last position in the first round of betting. My point is that to automatically check and fold for one bet in this situation (3 opponents, unraised pot) will mean that you will too often be folding the best hand, and surrendering the pot to middle pair, a draw, or a stone cold bluff. You can't go around folding the best hands very often if you want to win. And long term, don't you think your opponents will pick up on how weak-tight you are and start betting with nothing against you? Like I've said, weak-tight players can win only when they're playing against loose clueless players. Against any competition with half a brain, they've got no chance. | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Aisthesis, 23. Nov 2003 21:50 | ||
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| While I agree that there's a bit of a "tightness rules" tendency here that's sometimes carried to the extreme, I think Schuster's definitely right in this case about the enormous positional difference between this and the Malmuth hand. With a 1/2 blind structure, I wouldn't have even thought very hard mucking the hand pre-flop from SB. With 2/3 SB/BB admittedly it becomes more difficult--but there's not much point in keeping it if you're not going to play it at all. But I will say with 1/2 SB structure I've significantly improved my averages by only playing hands I'd also be serious about playing in LP (and that's not one). | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Barry T, 21. Nov 2003 00:28 | ||
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| Hi. Subject to very unusual situations, here is BarryT's small blind rule When playing trash, you must hit the flop twice to stay in. Otherwise, fold to any action on the flop. If no one bets the flop, re-evaluate your chances after seeing the turn, with a notion to folds unless you have a sompelling reason to beleive you are best. BarryT | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, Phish, 21. Nov 2003 12:47 | ||
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| on 21. Nov 2003 00:28 Barry T wrote: > Hi. Subject to very unusual situations, here is BarryT's small blind rule When > playing trash, you must hit the flop twice to stay in. Otherwise, fold to any action > on the flop. If no one bets the flop, re-evaluate your chances after seeing the > turn, with a notion to folds unless you have a sompelling reason to beleive you are > best. > > BarryT > Your post reminds me of the last section of Mason Malmuth's article in the latest CardPlayer magazine available online. I guess it answers his question. | ||
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| Re: Q5...What would you do?, ADAM THE EXPERT, 21. Nov 2003 16:35 | ||
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| OK, THIS ISSUE IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH, FOR ADAM THE EXPERT TO INVEST SOME TIME. THERE IS A VITAL PIECE OF INFORMATION MISSING, FROM YOUR QUESTION, AS IS USUALLY THE CASE. IT IS VITAL TO MENTION WETHER OR NOT, YOU HAVE ONE DIAMOND PRESENT. WHILE YOU NORMALLY DON'T GO FOR A "BACKDOOR" FLUSH, YOU HAVE MORE THAN THAT, IN THIS SITUATION. BUT, IF SOMEONE ELSE HAS A BETTER QUEEN, NOW YOU FIND YOURSELF IN A SITUATION, WHERE THAT IS YOUR PRIMARY HAND. MOST PEOPLE ONLY LOOK AT THE FINAL ODDS, OF MAKING A BACKDOOR FLUSH (23-1) RATHER THAN BREAKING IT DOWN, TO THE ODDS OF HITTING A FAVORABLE TURN CARD, AND THEN, THE ODDS OF HITTING A FAVORABLE RIVER. IN THIS CASE, IF YOU ARE BEATEN BY THE BIGGER KICKER, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO CALL, IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE BACKDOOR FLUSH DRAW. ALSO, SOMETIMES, YOU WILL BE UP AGAINST A SET, WHEREUPON THE PAIR-ONLY, WILL BE DRAWING DEAD (FOR ALL INTENSIVE PURPOSES) YOU'D BE SURPRISED HOW THESE LONGSHOTS, ADD UP OVER THE LONG HAUL. SO, IN THE FIRST EXAMPLE, I WOULD BET AND CALL IF RAISED, IF I HAD A BACKDOOR FLUSH DRAW, AND ALMOST ALWAYS FOLD, IF NOT (UNLESS AGAINST A CRAZED RAISER, WHO COULD HAVE ANYTHING.) IN THE SECOND EXAMPLE, THE SITUATION IS MORE DANGEROUS, BECAUSE THE NUMBER OF PLAYABLE HOLDING THAT CAN BEAT YOU IS HIGHER. BUT, YOU WILL STILL BET. WE CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH, THE IMPORTANCE OF NOT GIVING A FREE CARD, ESPECIALLY AGAINST SUB MORONS, WHO WILL CALL WITH ANYTHING, INCLUDING ONE OVERCARD, SMALL UNIMPROVED POCKET PAIRS, ETC. YOU JUST DON'T GIVE THEM A FREE CARD, YOU NEED TO COLLECT THEIR MONEY, THE TIMES THAT YOUR HAND IS GOOD, WHICH WILL BE MORE OFTEN THAT NOT. NOW, IN THE THIRD EXAMPLE, WE FIND THAT THE HAND CAN NOW BE BEATEN NOT ONLY BY A BIGGER KICKER, BUT ALSO BY A BIGGER PAIR. THIS IS A CHECK-AND-FOLD SITUATION, UNLESS THE FIRST PERSON TO YOUR LEFT BET OUT, AND EVERYONE, OR ALMOST EVERYONE CALLED. NOW, YOU MAY BE INCLINED, TO TAKE ONE OFF, AND SEE IF YOU PICK UP A FLUSH DRAW. BUT, IF YOU DID NOT HAVE AT LEAST ONE DIAMOND, YOU WOULD NEVER "TAKE ONE OFF" IN THIS EXAMPLE BOTTEM LINE: IF YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO BET OUT, WHEN YOU MAKE A HIGH TOP PAIR, THEN "DON'T THROW IN THE NICKEL, IN THE FIRST PLACE" ADAM | ||
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