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Server Time: 2/13/2012 5:22:03 PM PACIFIC |
 Starting Hands in EP, Palinya, 19. Nov 2003 08:33 | ||
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| I was wondering what people play in EP... Sklansky and Malmuth say you can play group 4 hands which would be stuff like T9s, KQ, 88, QTs. If the game is tough they suggest throwing these away and sticking with just group 3 hands or better like 99, JTs, QJs, KJs, ATs, AQ. I'm not really sure about the hand rankings here. They have KJs listed as group 3 and KQ listed as group 4... sure it's not suited and then they have TT as the best group 2 starting hand. I might be wrong but TT rarely holds up for me unless I hit trips but I have a better feeling for KJs and KQ... and I'm not really sure if having KJ suited makes it that much more valuable than KQ Ken Warren suggests being much tighter and lists the only starting hands as AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AQs, AK, AQ On page 195 Ken Warren has KJs as the 14th best hand and KQ as the 15th best hand. To me this sounds more correct than having those hand in completely different hand ranks. He also has TT as the 6th best hand... just behind AK. I may have undervalued this hand. It just seems like an overcard falls way to often to make someone top pair Also lets look at JJ compared to AQ. Sklanksy and Malmuth have JJ as a group 1 hand, ahead of AKs. They have AQ as the worst group 3 hand... behind ATs, KJs, JTs Ken Warren has AQ as one of his 7 EP starting hands. He doesn't even have JJ as playable in EP. He values AQ much more than he values AJs. S and M have AJs as a group 2 hand. They would rather play AJs in EP than AQ. Actually they would rather have ATs in EP than AQ... Ken Warren on the other hand suggests not playing AJs or ATs in EP. So who do you agree with? | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, Ian J, 19. Nov 2003 10:06 | ||
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| I was reading up on Sklansky the other day and I had just about all of the same questions that you did. I think the one thing you have to realize when reading Sklansky is that a lot of his material has to do with whether or not you will make a second best hand. Therefore, he puts KQ behind KJs even though heads up you'd obviously take KQ. KQ is just too hard to get away from and too easy to be dominated. At least with KJs most good players know that top pair is no good if you take any heat. Just remember that when reading Sklansky he writes a lot about trying not to make a second best hand. | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 10:18 | ||
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| It varies based on the game. If the game is very loose and passive, big suited connectors go up in value and their offsuit counterparts go down. I'd much rather play a QJs than a KQo in EP in a super loose passive game. You might even play a hand like 76s or A3s up front of the game is right. Small pairs go up in value as well in these types of games because you're often getting immediate odds to hit your set, and people will chase you the whole way often drawing thin to dead. If the game is aggressive, you really have to tighten up early and some of the poorer heads up group 3 hands should be thrown away, but the better shorthanded hands from group 4 can be played, like 88, 77 (don't remember if this is 4 or 5, but you can still play it) and maybe KQo, depending. If the pot is going to be heads up or 3 way, you want a hand that plays well in that situation. JTs and QJs should go in the muck, as should KJs and AJo. They just aren't strong enough with all those people left to act and in a shorthanded pot. These are just examples, but you should try to recognize that the values of each hand changes based on who you are playing against and then try to play your EP requirements accordingly. Eventually, you won't even think about hand groups, or Warren's starting hand list, or anything like that... you'll just see a hand and know if you can play it profitably or not. Good luck Palinya. Lee | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, noiseboy, 24. Nov 2003 14:59 | ||
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| One of the reasons there is so much disparity on what various experts recommend you should play in EP is that a lot of it is dependent on table conditions and your opponents. It's much easier to determine whether or not to play a hand with the added information you receive in MP or LP, ie, how many players are going to see the flop, is there a raise or reraise, etc.... Let's look at pairs for instance, the general advice a lot of players give is to raise with JJ's or above, or maybe TT and above, and to limp with 77-TT or 88-TT. At a normal game this sounds about right; however, let us say that you've been sitting there for two hours and EVERY pot has 6-9 players and virtually NONE have been raised. Then it would probably be correct to limp with ANY pair to try to flop a set. Most games are not predictable enough to do predictions on which hands will become playable based on what happens after you, so you want to err on the safe side. Let's say you sit down at a new table, and the last three pots have been capped and ended up three way on the flop, then you get dealt 88 UTG, you should muck because you don't want to risk 3 or 4 bets on this hand, especially if you can't anticipate a lot of callers. Anyway, my recommendation is to group the hands by type (big pairs, medium pairs, small pairs, big connectors, medium connectors, small connectors, suited A's, and so forth) and do some specific study as to what type of conditions each hand likes, each type of hand, and each individual hand for that matter has it's own character. Study them like they were people you've met for the first time at a party, use memorable traits to distinguish their personality from others you've met. Some of them have catchy nicknames like "Big Slick, Rockets, Cowboys, Presto, etc..." which make them easy to remember. For example, over on Strategy and Psy, there is a very good discussion on playing pocket TTs and how it likes few callers or a lot of callers, but doesn't really play well in between. 99 and 88 are somewhat similar in this regard but a little bit weaker then TT. Anyway, as you learn what conditions each hand likes, you will be able to make correct judgements about whether you think you can acheive those conditions by raising or calling, or if the conditions don't look favorable you correctly muck. Once you learn the why behind the plays you are making, most of pre-flop strategy becomes obvious and automatic. Now of course you still have to vary your play, but how to do without too much cost becomes apparent as well. There are a lot of decisions that are pretty close, so you can do one or the other at random, or vary depending on what you think others will do and what their current image of you is, and this variety makes you harder to read. Some hands lend themselves well to varying your play like big suited connectors, which do well with very few callers, but because they are suited, you can sometimes let others in behind you. The tricky thing is that ithe hands don't go up or down together, the groups that poker authors put together are arbitrary and usually specific to whatever game they mostly play in, sometimes some of the hands go up and others go down due to game conditions, and if you change one variable just a little bit (such as aggression) suddenly a whole group of hands doesn't look attractive anymore. One more thing, I recommend that you don't try to separate pre-flop and post-flop play of hands. Whenever you get dealt a hand, your pre-flop actions set up your post-flop play, ie, it's all part of a coherent plan to play the hand. If you think in terms of what your raise or limp will accomplish for the rest of the hand, and what kind of flop you want and what kind of flop is trouble, this will make what to do seem much more clear. | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, Palinya, 25. Nov 2003 19:01 | ||
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| Great post thanks! I think it is actually all starting to click for me. The first time I read all the books and I read how important position was it was kind of like, 'yeah, yeah. KJo if I can play it late why not early... if I get a pair the kicker isn't too bad no matter what position I'm in' Then I did more study and more playing and analyzing hand histories with Poker Tracker and looking at different types of hands in different positions and what the outcome was and it really, really made a huge difference to my thinking. Now I am realizing what all the poker books really meant when they said position is important. When they say you can play QJo in late position, they do not mean you can play it in late position after a early position raise and 3 callers. This was the biggest thing for me to learn - you are not playing a hand based on your position really... you are playing it based on the information or lack of information that you have about your opponents and what they are holding. If for the last 20 hands 6-7 people have called pre-flop and there were no pre-flop raises then you can feel a lot more comfortable about playing something like JTs in early position. If there are usually 2 people in (other than the blinds) and there have been raises and reraises then you need to wait until late position to play this JTs and only when there have been no raises and you have enough opponents to make it worth its while. Although you should be playing based on knowledge rather than position, the two are closely tied together. Half of the knowledge comes from past hands with those opponents and the other half comes from how they are playing the current hand. (Actually probably more than half) This is something that didn't quite click with me at first. They say you can play a certain hand in late position but they don't emphasize enough how important it is that the conditions are just right. Or maybe this was just me missing it. The first time I read it, it didn't all click but now when I go back and read it, it really makes a lot more sense | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, ADAM THE EXPERT, 1. Dec 2003 23:31 | ||
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| GEE, PALINYA, IS IT REALLY THAT MUCH HARDER, TO WRITE: EARLY POSITION? THINK ABOUT IT, YOUR WRITING A POST WITH A COUPLE HUNDRED WORDS, SO YOU SAVE THREE SECONDS, BY ABBREVIATING TWO WORDS FIGHT ABBREVIATIONS!!! LESS THEY OVERRUN US!! ANYWAY, I'M SO SICK OF PEOPLE GIVING OUT THE WRONG ADVICE, IN REFERENCE TO HOLD EM STARTING HANDS. THE PRIMARY CONSIDERATION, AS TO STARTING HAND, IS NOT THE POSITION, BUT THE TYPE AND TOUGHNESS OF THE GAME. IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN A LOOSE 3-6 GAME, WITH AN AVERAGE OF SEVEN PLAYERS IN EVERY POT, WITH NO, OR VERY LIMITED RAISING, YOU DON'T THROW AWAY A PERFECTLY GOOD HAND, SUCH AS J 10s, or 88 JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE IN FIRST POSITION!!! "ARMCHAIR" EXPERTS, ACT AS THOUGH YOU ARE GOING TO LOSE YOUR FIRST-BORN CHILD, IF THE DREADED, BUT RARE SITUATION OCCURS, WHERE YOU FIND YOURSELF HEADS UP AGAINST A BETTER HAND! THE TYPES OF HANDS TO AVOID, IN THIS SITUATION, ARE THOSE THAT CAN EASILY HIT, AND BE OUTKICKED. SUCH AS :KJ, AJ A 10 AND OTHER RAGAMUFFIN HANDS. NOT, NOT A THOUSAND TIMES NOT, GOOD SUITED CONNECTORS, REASONABLE-SIZE POCKET PAIRS. NOW, SUPPOSE YOU FIND YOUR SELF IN A TOUGH, TOUGH 20-40 HOLD ME GAME. WHY THEN, ADAM THE EXPERT WOULD NOT EVEN PLAY AQ SUITED OR NO, IN FIRST POSITION.. IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN A WILD GAME, WHERE EVERY POT IS CAPPED, WITH 7 OR MORE PLAYERS, THEN YOUJ CAN JUST FORGET ABOUT UNSUITED ACE HANDS, ALTOGHTHER INCLUDING THE (INCORRECTLY) MUCH-COVETED (WALKING BACK TO HOUSTON) (THAT'S ACE KING, TO THE UNINITIATED) ANY HAND THAT CANNOT MAKE A SET, STRAIGHT OR FLUSH, IS A BIG LOSER, IN NO FOLD 'EM TYPE GAMES. AND OF COURSE, NO LIMIT GAMES, HAVE THEIR OWN SET OF "STARTING HAND RANKS" WE'LL GET INTO THAT LATER. BOTTEM LINE: IF YOU ARE IN A GAME, WHERE IT'S SO TOUGH, THAT YOU HAVE TO THROW AWAY JJ OR 10 10, BECAUSE YOU'RE IN EARLY POSITION: THEN: GET THE LIVING HELL OUT OF THAT GAME!!!!! GAME SELECTION, IS BY FAR, THE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL YOU CAN EVER MASTER. YOU CAN BE ONLY A SO SO PLAYER, BUT IF YOU ONLY PLAY IN GREAT GAMES, YOU CAN BECOME THE MUCH-HEARLDED "LONG-TERM WINNER" HEY, WHY AM I STUPID ENOUGH, TO GIVE OUT ALL THE TRADE SECRETS.??!!! A.T.E. | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, Palinya, 2. Dec 2003 00:27 | ||
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| A.T.E. ? I don't understand. Feel free to criticize my poker knowledge all you want but I'm sorry Adam, you are not one to be criticizing anyone's writing style or typing skills. Yes, I have read your posts on how you can write anyway you want to because your poker knowledge is so superior and I'm okay with that. I don't really care how you write and I do believe the message is more important. At the same time those who live in glass houses don't need to be throwing rocks. | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, CRCarson, 2. Dec 2003 17:36 | ||
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| ADAM- TWO THOUGHTS: 1) JTs AND 88 ARE GROUP FOUR HANDS - I UNDERSTAND FROM MY READING THAT THESE ARE OK TO PLAY FROM ANY POSITION. 2) YOU TEE OFF ON SOMEONE TYPING "EP" THEN SIGN YOUR POST "A.T.E". JUST HAVING SOME FUN WITH THAT ONE. I LOVE YOUR POSTS. C.R.C. | ||
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| Re: Starting Hands in EP, Highflyin3484k, 2. Dec 2003 17:57 | ||
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| GOTTEM COACH... HAHAHAHA | ||
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