|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 2/13/2012 12:07:43 PM PACIFIC |
 How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 07:25 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Im playing in a typical 10 person 2/4 table online. No real maniacs. About 35% flop percentage. Im one off the button. EP opens for a raise, MP reraises, LP caps, and I cold call four bets with 54o. I must be crazy !!!. The SB folds and the BB called the threebets. The Flop is 5 handed. Im hoping to hit the flop hard. If I dont I cant easily fold it. I put the other 4 players on premium hands, maybe (AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ???). Flop comes: 4, 6, 7. rainbow BB bets, EP raises, MP calls, LP 3 bet, I call and so do the rest. The turn is a the almighty A (no flush possible) BB checks, EP checks, MP bets, LP raises, I call and so do the rest. River is a 3 BB checks, EP checks, MP checks, LP checks, I bet and they all call. And I take down a huge pot. BB had QQ, EP had KK, MP had AQs, LP had AKo. NOw the fun starts, They are all verbally abusing my play. "How could you cold call 4 bets with 45o" YOu have no clue how to play, i cant play this game with boneheads.. Yada yada yada!! How many of you would make this call preflop. Is it the right play or just crazy luck? I ran the hands through poker odds calculator and here are the results, Preflop: QQ - 9.6%, KK - 47.3%, AQs - 7.5%, AK - 14.3% and 45o - 21.5%. Not bad to call four bets to win like 50. After the flop - I'll just list in order. 4.6%, 36.3%, 4.4%, 6.7%, 48%. After the turn - 2.6%, 2.6%, 0.0%, 60.5%, 34.2% | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, grant pittman, 19. Nov 2003 08:02 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Eman you ever consider playing higher limits? If you do let me know. I will give you my pager number. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 09:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Grant, I know that calling 4-bets, heck even two bets for that matter, with 54o is normally a horrible play. Personally, I only play that hand from the BB in most cases. However, against this particular line-up, he ends up with a 20% chance of winning preflop with five players throwing money in. Strangely enough, the small connecting cards play well against big pairs, and he's pretty sure at this point that his opponents are on big pairs or big slick. Doesn't he about break even on the pre-flop call? Of course he can't know for a fact that two of the other players are badly dominated, although he can guess that all of the other players are on premium hands, and that his cards are live. He also knows that if it comes with low cards he will get a ton of action from the big hands out, because he has a hand that nobody will put him on. Anyway, it seems like post-flop onward he played the hand well, he had a draw that he thougth was good and some outs to trips and two pair, although once the A comes, two pair and trip outs might be dead. There is also the fact that he probably put 3 players on tilt, and they will give him lots of action after this. I tend to make a "crazy" play like this once in a while to "fire up the table". When people get POed they usually start being really loose aggressive and targeting you specifically, which can be quite profitable if you catch some real hands after that. I fully understand the problem with the pre-flop play is that he's often putting 4 SBs into a pot that he will have to immediately fold when he misses. That's a big drawback to the play, it's hard to justify advertising when most of the time, the cards end up in the muck and nobody ever knows that you made a loose call. I'm not advocating calling 4-bets with the small connectors, but it doesn't seem like this play is as bad as it seems on the surface. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 09:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This play doesn't seem so bad because he got lucky. In the long run he will not get so lucky. I disagree with this play in Limit Holdem but in No Limit I would do the same thing. You have a chance to win a big pot if the flop comes ragged as it will be hard for players to lay down a high pair when the board is 7 high. When playing limit he got the golden situation and flop, the best possible scenario for him. No other way could the cards have fallen for him to get anymore money out of the pot, I am not saying he's stupid because he did have logic behind the call but I think thats a No Limit Holdem play more than a limit holdem play, If he was playing no limit he would have busted 4 guys and taken down a HUGE pot rather then just a big pot in limit, and thats when everything went right. You can play that hand another 100 times and not get that kind of scenario. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 09:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I fully agree that this is more of a NL or PL play, where the implied odds are much higher. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 09:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| In No Limit, I think it will be hard to play this hand. I dont think I would risk all my chips or a huge amount of my stack with this hand. But if the preflop raise was less than 1/4 of my stack I may call preflop. However, drawing out in NL is death. If someone put me allin after that flop (lets say the person holding KK). I would have a tough decision to call. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 09:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| No Limit this is the only time you can play this hand and definatley not if you have to put in 1/4 of your stack, you don't want to put in more than 10% of your stack with this kind of hand. Now if this was No Limit and I got that kind of flop I would check raise all in on the flop. Try to win it there and if not you still have many outs. I see that as the only profitable way to play the hand. on 19. Nov 2003 09:48 Eman wrote: > In No Limit, I think it will be hard to play this hand. I dont think I would risk all my chips or a > huge amount of my stack with this hand. But if the preflop raise was less than 1/4 of my stack I > may call preflop. However, drawing out in NL is death. If someone put me allin after that flop > (lets say the person holding KK). I would have a tough decision to call. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 09:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > If someone put me allin after that flop > (lets say the person holding KK). I would have a tough decision to call. No offense, but this could not be more wrong. If someone holding KK puts you all in after that flop, you have an easy call. You're only slightly worse than even money to make 2 pair or better, and with the amount of money that's already in the pot, you're getting much better than even money return on the rest of your stack, unless it is absolutely gigantic. I would suggest you go back and read The Theory of Poker, specifically the chapter on expectation value. I think you're missing the boat. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 10:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Ive read that awhile ago, maybe I need to go back. But I dont like to put all my chips in on a draw. I know I have a ton of outs. The key is survival in NL tourneys. I have done pretty well in NL tourneys. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 10:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Whos talking about a NL tourny? I mean live game, that is what you were playing anyways | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 10:10 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| oh...my mistake...i never played Live NL games. Only tourneys. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 10:21 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I thought you were talking about a no limit ring game as well, not a tourney. In a tourney, yeah it's an easy fold, but in a tourney, you wouldn't want to put yourself in a situation where you'd have to fold in another very +EV situation after hitting the flop almost perfectly. Hence, you'd muck the 54o without a second thought. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, LJH, 19. Nov 2003 10:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| NOISEBOY, WHERE FROM DID YO\U GET %20 FOR THIS PRE-FLOP HAND. AS GRANT SAID I WANT YOU AND EMAN IN MY GAME AT THE ORLEANS IN JANUARY. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 11:21 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey there, I'm not the one who ran it through the percentage calculator, see the original post. I have also pointed out that it is calculating percentages for seeing all five cards, which isn't that useful since he will only see 3 cards and fold in the VAST majority of cases. It is also a bit of a freak, because although he knows that the other players has big cards, the thing that ups his winning percentage is that two of the hands are badly dominated. He's not psychic, so he was really just making an educated guess as to what the other players had. Long story short, I am being the devil's advocate a bit here. I don't think that calling 4-bets with 54o in limit poker is wise, but I'm also not sure it is as incredibly horrible in a multiway pot where you know where you opponents are as everyone makes it out to be. There's no doubt in my mind that the pots he wins will be very big, but I don't think he will hit often enough to make it up. I think in NL this play is much better. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Hatchthunder, 19. Nov 2003 08:04 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I am sorry Eman, I could/would never call 4 bets cold with 54o. The best you can wish for is a str8 or 2 pairs. That has to be a very -EV play over the long term. You got lucky on the river after you got stuck on the hand with that flop. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 08:28 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I know I got lucky. But what are your thoughts on the results of the odds calculator. Preflop my odds of winning the hand were better than the majority of the hands. And after the flop I could have made two pair, trips, or a straight to win. (13 outs). | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 08:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I got lucky because I had a huge advantage of live cards in the deck. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Snorbolus, 19. Nov 2003 08:49 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think that the odds calculator shows you were an underdog the whole way. Snorbolus on 19. Nov 2003 08:28 Eman wrote: > I know I got lucky. But what are your thoughts on the results of the odds calculator. > Preflop my odds of winning the hand were better than the majority of the hands. And after > the flop I could have made two pair, trips, or a straight to win. (13 outs). | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 08:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I dont think so. Preflop I know im up against premium High card hands. Obviously Im going in to the pot and hoping for a flop that gives me a huge atvantage to draw out. I wouldnt play this hand if they all just called the BB, no raises, because theres the possiblity of hitting a straight and loosing to a higher straight. But with all the preflop betting, I only entered this pot because I knew I was up against premium hands, and if the flop hits hard, I know im drawing to the Nuts. Im risking 4 bets to win close to 50 bets. I was hoping that a couple of the hands were dead and cancelled each other out. Thus giving me more live cards. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 09:06 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| What hands would you call 4 bets cold preflop? In this example i think the only high hands that i would call preflop are AA and AKs and maybe KK.. But giving 45, I think the implied odds are there and the read on the other players hands are there, and knowing the many live cards you have help make the call also. But thats just my thoughts, and you can criticize all you want. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 09:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > But giving 45, I think the implied odds are there. Hi. No, they really aren't. You said it yourself, you're risking 4 bets to win 50, but you're actually risking more bets the times that you catch a piece of the flop and have to pay it off the whole way because the pot is now huge. I think you need to look beyond the simple "I put in 4 bets to win 50" and pokerstove calculations. Forgive me if I'm harsh, but plays like this are the reason I (and others) make money at poker. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Mark Barnett II, 19. Nov 2003 10:25 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| actually i bet you make alot more of your money off the players who are so clueless about how to play the game they automatically fold this hand without ever bothering to consider the other possiblities. *again i doubt i would ever feel BALLSY enough to make this play and im not intending for anyone to think its a good play, my point is 'THINK !' dont be braindead cause someone/book tells you to is the play long term profitable, probably not, the times you pay and miss the flop added to the times you hit the flop and lose more money probably adds up to much more than the pots he wins, however i bet at least for a short while he OWNED that table (almost all pros/authors advise you at times to make a negative expectation play on the basis of what if's and what might be's) Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 10:34 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Fundamental theory of poker says I make more money off the people who make mistakes in the play of their hand, and the more serious the mistake, the more I profit. This is a blatant mistake. I have "THOUGHT" about the play. It's -EV by a lot. Even if you account table image into the equation, you're giving up probably about an hours worth of EV for image. I'd rather make a play that only costs me a little in EV, rather than a lot. Add to the fact that he's online, and the table might be completely different in 15 minutes makes it even worse. If you "THINK" that playing this way could be +EV, in any sense of the word, let me know and I'd be glad to sit at your table. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Mark Barnett II, 19. Nov 2003 12:04 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| but as Roy says its the RECURRING sum that matters, just because he may have made a bad play here doesnt mean that over the long run you could beat him, and his thinking about making the play and why he made the play to me says that your chances of beating specifically him are lousy *as in he will figure out how you play and counter act against it* again let me state i dont think in most situations i or anyone should make the call and even this situation i think is dubious at best, but poker is ALL about thinking outside the box, always being willing to do the unexpected *NOT doing it, willing to do it* to me his thinking is logical and well thought out (the conclusion he draws is not the issue) i would rather avoid playing at his table and pick people who are clueless and would fold this hand cause some book tells them too again if i make a mistake at some point that makes you make alot more mistakes because you react to my mistake guess who wins over the long run. (this is what players call advertising, you have to pick your spots *not sure this qualifies exactly since its kinda an all or nothing hand*) you want to play against people who play by rote, who always play the same way regardless of the situation, you dont want to play against people who obviously are thinking thinking thinking and may outhink you down the road Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 12:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Too many messages so I can't reply directly underneath. > but as Roy says its the RECURRING sum that matters, just because he may have > made a bad play here doesnt mean that over the long run you could beat him, So making a very negative EV play adds to the recurring sum? Doesn't work like that. > and his thinking about making the play and why he made the play to me says > that your chances of beating specifically him are lousy *as in he will figure out > how you play and counter act against it* I don't want to turn this into a who is better than who game. I am saying that, as a winning player, I look for games where people call 4 bets cold with 54o. Game selection and such. He made a bad play and is having trouble understanding why it is bad. I'm attempting to communicate the why. That's what the forum is about. > again let me state i dont think in most situations i or anyone should make the > call and even this situation i think is dubious at best, but poker is ALL > about thinking outside the box, always being willing to do the unexpected > *NOT doing it, willing to do it* You can only go so far outside the box in limit hold'em. There's only so much you can win due to the structured betting system. What I'm saying is, he's too far outside the box. Way too far. > to me his thinking is logical and well thought out (the conclusion he draws is > not the issue) i would rather avoid playing at his table and pick people who > are clueless and would fold this hand cause some book tells them too The conclusion is the issue. Mathematically, he does not have the odds to play this hand, and it's not even close. Is this what you're disputing? Odds and mathematics are pretty much everything in low limit hold'em. > again if i make a mistake at some point that makes you make alot more > mistakes because you react to my mistake guess who wins over the long > run. (this is what players call advertising, you have to pick your spots *not > sure this qualifies exactly since its kinda an all or nothing hand*) Ok, even with advertising... The odds of him flopping well enough to see the river on LOOSE calls aren't even 50%. This pot won't be won uncontested, there's going to be a showdown. If you're going to advertise, pick a spot where it doesn't completely kill your EV. This spot does. > you want to play against people who play by rote, who always play the same > way regardless of the situation, you dont want to play against people who > obviously are thinking thinking thinking and may outhink you down the road Fancy play syndrome. If I'm up against someone who has read a few books and knows enough to fold a 54o to 4 bets, even if they don't understand why, I'm going to make less than if someone tries to justify calling those 4 bets. By the way, I don't recommend folding because Sklansky, or Jones, or anyone says so... I recommend folding because *I* know there's absolutely no way you can make this hand profitable in the long run in low limit hold'em. Even if your opponents were complete maniacs and capped every street, and you only stayed in when you hit the flop really hard, I suspect it couldn't be done. You need to look at the "implied odds" and the odds of making your hand. They don't match up to a +EV. Do you think that this play has a +EV in the long run, all things considered? If so, tell me. If not, then why are we arguing? Run a Turbo Texas Hold'em sim if you want and post the results. Congratulate him all you want for being willing to question his existing knowledge. It shows good growth of a player. But slight deviation is better when you're first getting your feet wet with this thing. This play is way out of the bounds of solid poker. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, grant pittman, 19. Nov 2003 10:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If this view doesn't make it all clear I doubt any will. Well said Schuster. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, LJH, 19. Nov 2003 10:58 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| EMAN, YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SHOULD DO WITH YOUR ODDES CALCULATOR, LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Snorbolus, 19. Nov 2003 08:47 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Maby you should have checked the river, because of the possibility that the pre-flop 4 bettor had 85o Snorbolus on 19. Nov 2003 07:25 Eman wrote: > Im playing in a typical 10 person 2/4 table online. No real maniacs. About 35% > flop percentage. Im one off the button. EP opens for a raise, MP reraises, LP > caps, and I cold call four bets with 54o. I must be crazy !!!. The SB folds > and the BB called the threebets. The Flop is 5 handed. Im hoping to hit the > flop hard. If I dont I cant easily fold it. I put the other 4 players on > premium hands, maybe (AA, AK, KK, QQ, JJ???). > Flop comes: 4, 6, 7. rainbow > BB bets, EP raises, MP calls, LP 3 bet, I call and so do the rest. > The turn is a the almighty A (no flush possible) > BB checks, EP checks, MP bets, LP raises, I call and so do the rest. > River is a 3 > BB checks, EP checks, MP checks, LP checks, I bet and they all call. And I take > down a huge pot. > BB had QQ, EP had KK, MP had AQs, LP had AKo. > > NOw the fun starts, They are all verbally abusing my play. "How could you cold > call 4 bets with 45o" YOu have no clue how to play, i cant play this game with > boneheads.. Yada yada yada!! > > How many of you would make this call preflop. Is it the right play or just > crazy luck? I ran the hands through poker odds calculator and here are the > results, > Preflop: QQ - 9.6%, KK - 47.3%, AQs - 7.5%, AK - 14.3% and 45o - 21.5%. > Not bad to call four bets to win like 50. > After the flop - I'll just list in order. > 4.6%, 36.3%, 4.4%, 6.7%, 48%. > After the turn - > 2.6%, 2.6%, 0.0%, 60.5%, 34.2% > > > > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Phish, 19. Nov 2003 08:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The real idiots are the guys criticizing you for playing your hand. It's your money and you can play it anyway you want. Idiots who blame the dealers (as if the dealers could control the cards) and criticize other players (as if everybody is supposed to play like them) are not worth paying attention to. Cause they're IDIOTS. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, mkpoker, 19. Nov 2003 08:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 19. Nov 2003 07:25 Eman wrote: > Im playing in a typical 10 person 2/4 table online. No real maniacs. I beg to differ. There was one real maniac...you! As you acknowledged in your own post, calling 4-bets cold with 45o isn't a +EV play (to put it mildly). However, once you flop the open-end draw, you must stay in...but beware if the board pairs. Grant's post made me chuckle. Forget the odds calculator and go to the "Grant Calculator." If he's that desperate to get in a game with you, you made the wrong play! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 09:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| What hands would you call 4 bets cold preflop? In this example i think the only high hands that i would call preflop are AA and AKs and maybe KK.. But giving 45, I think the implied odds are there and the read on the other players hands are there, and knowing the many live cards you have help make the call also. But thats just my thoughts, and you can criticize all you want. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 09:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This play doesn't seem so bad because he got lucky. In the long run he will not get so lucky. I disagree with this play in Limit Holdem but in No Limit I would do the same thing. You have a chance to win a big pot if the flop comes ragged as it will be hard for players to lay down a high pair when the board is 7 high. When playing limit he got the golden situation and flop, the best possible scenario for him. No other way could the cards have fallen for him to get anymore money out of the pot, I am not saying he's stupid because he did have logic behind the call but I think thats a No Limit Holdem play more than a limit holdem play, If he was playing no limit he would have busted 4 guys and taken down a HUGE pot rather then just a big pot in limit, and thats when everything went right. You can play that hand another 100 times and not get that kind of scenario. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 09:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey eman, Just out of curiousity, you should try to run other line-ups of premium hands against your 54o with the calculator and see if this is a special case or if this will often happen where the 54 has a surprisingly high win percentage. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 09:57 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Here goes: AsAd - 48.1% KsKd - 9.0% QsQd - 16.1% AcKc - 8.0% 4c5h - 18.7% If the 45 was suited the percentage goes up to 23%. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 10:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The only problem is that it's calculating the winning percentage over 5 cards. The rub is that even if your hand has a decent chance of winning over five (due to the liveness of your hand), you will have to fold after three most of the time. You have hit upon something people should consider, however, that the small connectors have surprisingly decent chance against much bigger hands. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 10:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Fully agree. You are going to fold almost every time after the flop. You need to see an open ended straight or flop two pair to keep playing the hand. Its pretty easy to let go of this hand. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, LJH, 19. Nov 2003 11:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| EMNA DO WHAT YOU WILL. YOU ASKED US FOR OUR THOUGHTS AND WE GAVE THEM TO YOU---SO WHY ARE YOU SO DEFENSIVE. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 09:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm not sure if the implied odds on this hand and the advertising add up on this play. You ended up with a decent winning percentage pre-flop because several of the other hands badly dominate each other. I'd be interested to see how the 54 does against other line-ups where the hands don't negate each other. That being said, I did have a very good experience with a similar play when I was short-stacked late in a tournament. There was a raise, a couple of cold calls, and a reraise to me, I look down to see the 76s, I had just enough to cap it. I decided that my cards were most certainly live, and if I won the pot, I'd have a decent stack for the final table. I decided it was worth it to gamble since I was getting down to the felt anyway. I ended up flopping two pair and winning a quite large main pot, chips which I used to make it to the final table and got to the final deal and made about 2K. In this case, however, I had the additional "implied" odds that if I won the hand, I could make a bunch in prize money. I'm not sure I would make the play in a ring game. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 09:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| BTW I should mention that all the other players had the hands they were supposed to have, two were on big pairs and one was on a big connector. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 09:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| No Limit this is the only time you can play this hand and definatley not if you have to put in 1/4 of your stack, you don't want to put in more than 10% of your stack with this kind of hand. Now if this was No Limit and I got that kind of flop I would check raise all in on the flop. Try to win it there and if not you still have many outs. I see that as the only profitable way to play the hand. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 10:12 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| At that point in the tournament, the blinds were so high compared to my stack that I was playing pretty much playing No Limit, the blinds were about to go up as well, so I had some "chip desperation" working in my decision to go with the hand. I actually think that was a good play despite my crap hand, because it was the only way to give myself a chance to win. There is a point where you get low enough you just need to find something and go with it. I wasn't catching anything and 76s was actually the best hand I'd seen in quite some time. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Mark Barnett II, 19. Nov 2003 10:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| i like the play, would i have made the play-highly unlikely but what it says to me more than anything is your deep into the table, you are paying full attention to whats happening and you are willing to take some risks. you thought very clearly about what you were likely against and knew that you would have to hit the flop hard in order to stay, you also got the added benefit of steaming some of the players. BTW this is exactly the kind of situation/hand why im trying to find strange and bizarre odds *what is the chance of you flopping two pair, trips, straight draw?* poker is not only about this one decision, its how can it affect future decisions by you and others. Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 10:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| He's about 3.5% to flop trips or two pair and about 11% to flop a straight draw. These numbers are from memory, but they're pretty close. Note that even if he hits 2 pair, his hand is still very vulnerable to an overpair, since they will likely be bottom 2 pair. When he wins, he'll probably profit about 30 small bets. 40 if he's lucky. The odds are obviously not there, neither immediate nor implied. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, mkpoker, 19. Nov 2003 10:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| He also needs to consider that he might make his draw and lose. Given the action, he must assume that he's up against multiple high pairs, all of which have the potential to make a full house. For example, if the flop were K57, he'd flop an open-end str8 draw, but given the action, 46 would have to fear that he's facing a set, which could easly fill up by the river. If the turn comes an 8, the trips Ks still have an excellent (25%ish if memory serves) chance of drawing out. If a 5 or 7 came on the turn, 46o would face a tough decision about whether to call to see the river card. Similarly, with this kind of action, you could be facing one (or two) high card suited hands like AKs or AQs which have the potential to make a flush. Given ALL these factors, a pre-flop call is clearly not warranted. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, redsoxasu, 19. Nov 2003 10:17 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I will say this, you got crazy lucky. Normally, you're not going to hit an open-ended straight that often (I'm not sure of the percentage, but it's quite low). However, your play after the flop was correct, because of the size of the pot and the odds you would make the straight (~31% if I'm right). Personally, I will always dump 54o, unless I think i can steal blinds with it from late position. In limit, i wont ever play it unless i am in the BB and it's been called around to me. Most of the time i think you will find plays like these to be not profitable in the long run. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Mark, 19. Nov 2003 10:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Eman I would never play 45o for multiple bets in any position in limit holdem. You will be a long term loser playing those hands. As for you being having a 21% chance to win. Using poker stove,21% is the best possible scenario, and only occurs specifically against the hands you chose. Throw in a random hand, or change one of the hands you picked, and you go down to 17% or less. It just happens, that the hands you picked cancel out each others outs. Change one of the hands to a 78s, and you go down to 13% At the surface your hand looks like a slightly + EV call, but it really isn't. If you know 100% what your opponents held, than maybe, you have a marginal call. But in most situations, you will be making a -EV call. To give you an idea of what the % really means, if you addeded a 6th player who had a random hand, you are only 4% better than him. If he has a 72o, you are only 6% better than him. These kinds of plays will give you huge swings in your roll, and will tend be losing plays in the long run. Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 10:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The thought process is right, but you're a bit off. 6% is often the difference between a playable hand and a loser in a big multiway pot, so that argument doesn't fly quite right. In general though, you're correct... his result is largely based on the fact that everyone else didn't have many cards left to improve. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, LJH, 19. Nov 2003 10:54 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| DEAR EMAN, OF COURSE IT IS OUTRAGEOUS LUCK, AND IF YOU KEEP PLAYING THAT TYPE OF HAND YOU WILL SOON BE ON THE RAIL. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Bond18, 19. Nov 2003 12:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The first problem is even though you ran those hands through the poker stove or what not, unless they all showed (i HIGHLY doubt that) you don't really know what they had and what percentage favorite you were and who had whos outs. Second is that if your gonna play a connector for a lot of money, at least play suited. Third your missing an angle here, while your hand may have a 20% chance against those hands that is when ALL the cards are out, but on the flop you can't go calling bets if you only have 3 to a straight or just a small pair considering how much its going to be raised, so while if ALL the money went in PF and all the cards came out, yes you have a 20% chance, but just seeing the fllop reduces your chances of being in a situation where is profitable to draw. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 13:15 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Wow, I didnt think this post would get so much action. Its very similar to the action I got on my solid hands I played after playing 54o. LOL. Im gonna try and respond to all the posts. It seems some of you think that I play this hand regularly. I of course do not. Im a regular winner at low limit, 1/2, 2/4 and 3/6. If youre playing at a tight aggressive table with people playing "by the book", who really has the atvantage?? No one, it comes down to who gets better cards. As someone posted earlier, making a play like this is crazy play on the surface, but the affect i had on the table was far more valuable than this hand. Someone else posted that I am defensive. I certainly am not, Im just trying to explain my reasoning. Im trying to challenge other players and say i can outplay you, Im just trying to spark up an intellectual discusson on Poker. I firmly believe that tight/aggressive wins. Playing solid cards wins. But, making a play like this once in a while is not that "crazy", Its a "gamble", but not crazy. My cards are live and connected and im up against group 1 hands... Its a well thought out gamble. Just My Opinion. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 13:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| the fact that this post is so controversial kind've illustrates the fact that doing something out of line can be beneficial to your table image. If you are always in line, then people get a line on you. However, there is a lot of turnover online, so I think this type of play has more value at B&M, where the same players will be sitting there for six hours with you. I would think that you probably planned on tightening up afterwards and taking advantage of everyone's fishy image of you with big hands. The downside, of course, is that Semibluffs and steals won't work as well. I don't think I would enter a capped pot with 54, but hey more power to you as long as you play MOSTLY tight aggressive and only do this once in a while to vary your play. Just keep in mind that most players do way more deception and play way more marginal hands than they need to to keep their opponents guessing. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, Eman, 19. Nov 2003 14:16 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This situation will rarely come up. It is timing and creating confusion in your opponents thoughts. There is nothing wrong with getting lucky playing "garbage" if it seldom happens and you bring the correct amount of attention to the act. Many people will take that play out of context and mathematically show why its -EV. Making every play correct by the book makes you very predictable and makes you dependent upon catching cards to win (now that is more of a gamble) Of course it's not the correct mathematical play, but then poker isn't a math game, it's a gambling game played with cards against other people. Play the game. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, mkpoker, 19. Nov 2003 14:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Noise and Eman have suggested that one of the reasons to play this hand is that it will create positive table image for you (as a loose "gambler" kind of player). But I'd submit that this is among the WORST hands on which to make such a "table image" play. As I'm sure you'll both acknowledge, you'll very rarely reach showdown with this hand. Most of the time, you'll muck it on the flop (after you've called 4-bets cold!). Even if you do hit a draw, you'll won't call a river bet unless you complete your hand. And obviously, if you fold this hand at any point, you won't be able to advertise your "loose" play. So in 95ish percent of cases, your table image will remain unchanged. I think "table image" plays are much overrated at the lower limits, but if you must, you should make these plays for CHEAP. On this hand, you paid "super bowl" rates for your advertisement. Instead, you should pay "rerun" rates! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would most people play this hand???, noiseboy, 19. Nov 2003 14:36 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| yep, I mentioned that earlier, that most of the time the advertising value is exactly zero, because when it doesn't work, nobody will ever know, unless you are an angle shooter and "accidentally" show the cards. Anyway, the only time I'm in there when it's capped with small cards is when I think it's going to be cheap to get in, for example there is multiway and I am playing a 2/3 blind and it's only one raise, but I end up on the installment plan when in this example the BB unexpectedly raises. Personally, i prefer to gamble with small pairs when it's already multiway, which is a much cheaper form of advertising. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses |
|