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Server Time: 2/13/2012 4:47:13 PM PACIFIC |
 No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, JLenart, 19. Nov 2003 06:47 | ||
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| I'm playing 5/10 at a very loose passive table yesterday and I'm dealt KK UTG. At this table any ace plays and several people were playing any suited cards and anything connected suited or not. I saw 24s chase to the river and catch to win. I'm too tight to play this junk and just waited for my cards. I raise with my KK and get 7, no kidding 7 callers. Uh OH!!! The flop comes A 3 7 with two hearts, oh great! I figure I'm in trouble but I bet out and get 3 callers, darn! The turn brings a black 6 now I'm looking at a raggy straight possibility, a flush draw and an over card, but I don't want to show weakness or give a free card (This, I think was a Mistake, I'm pretty confident someone didn't stay with 54 but I'm still sweating the Ace, If I thought I might be beat and with only two outs I don't think I should have bet). The river comes an Ace, I check here and the table checks around. To my amazement I take down a very nice pot. Theres no ace?! There's a moral to this story somewhere but I'm not quite sure what lesson I should learn from this experience. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, kurosawa, 19. Nov 2003 07:13 | ||
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| I believe it was Bart Simpson who once said...."there's no moral to this story, it's just a bunch of stuff that happened" | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, Wren, 19. Nov 2003 10:40 | ||
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| You were very lucky to win this pot. With a flop like that and 7 callers (most of them cold-calling your two bets), you can expect someone to have an A about 95% of the time. And if they're gonna play A-little preflop to two bets, you better believe they're not going to fold post-flop due to "kicker problems". If you have the Kh, you can stick around to see one more card looking to hit another K or h on the turn (I think betting or check/calling has about the same EV here), but if you don't have the Kh, a check/fold is really in order. on 19. Nov 2003 06:47 JLenart wrote: > I'm playing 5/10 at a very loose passive table yesterday and I'm dealt KK UTG. > At this table any ace plays and several people were playing any suited cards and > anything connected suited or not. I saw 24s chase to the river and catch to win. > I'm too tight to play this junk and just waited for my cards. I raise with my > KK and get 7, no kidding 7 callers. Uh OH!!! The flop comes A 3 7 with two > hearts, oh great! I figure I'm in trouble but I bet out and get 3 callers, darn! > The turn brings a black 6 now I'm looking at a raggy straight possibility, a > flush draw and an over card, but I don't want to show weakness or give a free > card (This, I think was a Mistake, I'm pretty confident someone didn't stay with > 54 but I'm still sweating the Ace, If I thought I might be beat and with only > two outs I don't think I should have bet). The river comes an Ace, I check here > and the table checks around. To my amazement I take down a very nice pot. Theres > no ace?! > > There's a moral to this story somewhere but I'm not quite sure what lesson I > should learn from this experience. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, JLenart, 19. Nov 2003 12:25 | ||
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| Wren, One of my K's was a Kh. But the turn made that a moot point. As you stated bet or check call haveing the same EV I figured the bet was in order for deception reasons to maybe scare out a weak A. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, SpaceAce, 19. Nov 2003 11:21 | ||
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| I can't imagine what possessed you to play your pocket Kings against seven callers with an Ace on the board. I would have dropped those cowboys like they bit my thumb. You got away with it this time but you probably won't get away with it the next 93 times it happens. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, JLenart, 19. Nov 2003 12:28 | ||
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| I actually don't think betting out onnthe flopped A was that bad of a play. I was hoping to scare out any weak ace. someone at the table had even commented out loud post flop how nice my AK was then. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 12:33 | ||
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| If someone will call your raise with a weak ace, do you think they will release when they pair the ace? Positive result, negative expectation. Lee | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, JLenart, 19. Nov 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Lee, Will you always for KK when an Ace hits the board in a field of this size? I also make no illusions about how lucky i was in this hand. But I think there is some lesson about aggressiveness here. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, Schuster, 19. Nov 2003 12:47 | ||
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| I think Wren hit it. Check/call since the pot is giving you the right odds to draw to your set since the board is relatively uncoordinated. If one of your outs puts a 3 flush on the table though, I let it go. Lee | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, SpaceAce, 19. Nov 2003 17:41 | ||
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| on 19. Nov 2003 12:28 JLenart wrote: > I actually don't think betting out onnthe flopped A was that bad of a play. I was hoping > to scare out any weak ace. someone at the table had even commented out loud post flop how > nice my AK was then. I understand why you did it, I just don't think it was such a hot idea. Against 1, 2 or 3 callers, maybe, but against seven callers, you are looking for trouble. Not to mention all the other potential hands out there with that many people in the pot. In this case, you folded a lot of hands but I wouldn't expect to fold four people every time. The thing that I think makes this move most dangerous is that if an opponent called a pre-flop raise with his weak Ace, he isn't going to dump it when he actually makes his pair. My guess would be that you just got lucky and no one had the Ace in the first place. Either that or you caught TWO (or more) weak Aces out there that each became convinced that one of the others had a better kicker. No matter how powerful Kings are before the flop, it only takes one ace to ruin your day. As we all know, though, you don't always have to make the sound odds-on call to win at Hold'Em and when you do make the solid odds-on call you can still end up the loser. That's a large part of what makes poker poker :) SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, Phish, 20. Nov 2003 20:19 | ||
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| on 19. Nov 2003 11:21 SpaceAce wrote: > I can't imagine what possessed you to play your pocket Kings against seven callers > with an Ace on the board. I would have dropped those cowboys like they bit my thumb. > You got away with it this time but you probably won't get away with it the next 93 > times it happens. > > SpaceAce > I can't believe that everyone here is giving him so much criticism for how he played his hand. I personally saw nothing wrong with how he played it. Given the size of the pot and implied odds, it would've been correct to peel for a 2-outer here. And if you would've called, it is usually better to bet, especially against a passive field. This way, you get a better feel for where you are. If you get raised, you can call and dump it on the turn confident that you're beat. Extra cost is one small bet (you gotta take some risks in poker). If you just check and call and then fold on the turn, there is always the possibility that you were bluffed out, maybe by a late position bettor betting his JJ thinking it's good since everyone checked to him. On the turn, since no one raised the flop, a bet is not out of line. Maybe my judgment is skewed by the games I play where you rarely get 7 callers after an early position raise, but I think he played the hand fine. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, JLenart, 21. Nov 2003 05:33 | ||
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| Thanks Phish, Right now I'm reading Killer Poker and one of the main premises is that aggressiveness wins. It did here, who knows maybe I did get a weak ace to fold. | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, LJH, 19. Nov 2003 13:06 | ||
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| jlenart, the moral of the story is that anything can happen in holdem and usually does. ljh | ||
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| Re: No Ace? whats the moral of the story?, Bond18, 19. Nov 2003 15:46 | ||
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| I think the moral is that if your not raised on the flop or the turn and on the river theres two aces out you can be fairly (not fairly) confident your kings are gonna hold, i would argue that the second A falling is a good sign because it decreases the chance of somebody else having one, oddly enough with 7 callers. The moral of the story is that sometimes the best hand does actually hold up in LL hold'em (WHAT NO REALLY??) yes i swear to god it happens, gl. | ||
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