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Server Time: 2/13/2012 1:54:34 PM PACIFIC |
 profitting from tilt, Aisthesis, 19. Nov 2003 01:27 | ||
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| I was just playing at a $50 NLHE table on pokerstars when one guy went completely on tilt. He'd rebought about 3 times after really strange losses, making one think he was a complete beginner. At that stage, I just played my hands fairly normally, and it worked ok. Then, the same guy lost all his chips with 2 pair against a fairly obvious flush, rebought again, then started yelling at everyone at the table in an escalation of various insults, some I know designed to make his tilt more severe. At that stage the guy starts going all-in at various times, and the funny thing was, he made quite a bit of money by the time I left the table. I won a couple of small pots off him during this phase. He wasn't really mad at me, since I had pretty well kept my mouth shut, as I found the exchange of insults just unpleasant, whether or not further provocation would have been profitable. Frankly, I tried to tone things down a little in part because I didn't want him to leave the table. Anyhow, while I did win a little during this whole thing, I had trouble deciding when I should really call pre-flop. (The all-ins weren't completely irrational even in the most intense phase. Then he went to a phase where he'd stay in on anything, then go all in whenever he drew trips.) And even in the most intense phase, he rarely if ever went all-in pre-flop. I finally concluded that keeper pockets were probably any two cards 10 or better, of course pairs, and also AXs or KXs. But before reaching this conclusion, I wasted several bets on hands inappropriate to the situation, I think. For future reference, does that sound about right as to keeper pockets in such a case? The really amazing thing was that on the last rebuy, the tilt guy actually tripled his money with this crazy betting. I was really hoping to get a strong hand and have him go all-in, but all I really had the opportunity for were just a couple of moderate pots. What does one do in a situation like that? I probably should have just looked for another table since I was really more in the mood to play more serious poker than to deal with such crazy betting, but I thought it would be a good exercise to try and figure out some strategies for profitting off of such a tilt. Any suggestions? Reaping profit from tilt does seem to me to be an important skill, but I often feel like I'm getting little benefit when it happens. | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, TAKEDOWN, 19. Nov 2003 05:21 | ||
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| First let me say your're getting a reply from a 3 yr novice here. What I am now doing is purposely locating these kind of games and playing them with very tight starters. If I manage to get at least a set or better I will intentionally try initiate a feeding frenzy. This has resulted in some very large pots won by me. The only risk is a bad beat but the wins out weigh them in any extended period. | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, grant pittman, 19. Nov 2003 07:59 | ||
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| Aisthesis this is a great topic for discussion. It is very common for players to adopt the wrong strategy in this situation. I see very experienced players dealing with a tilto opponent improperly quite frequently. Limit poker and no-limit are very different games however I believe a similar strategy can be incorporated when playing against a tilted aggressive opponent. You have to look at your opponents errors and how best to exploit these errors if you want to beat them in poker. This applies to solid opponents as well as tiltos. In the case of a tilted player, the biggest error he is making is that he is entering too many pots for too many chips way too often with the worst hand OR a hand that is not a favorite to hold up given further action in the pot. This is not difficult to counter as long as you implement and STICK TO A PROPER STRATEGY. This does not include splashing around every pot that this guy enters with any hand that has a chance of making a straight or flush!!!!!!! You will have much better success waiting for big pairs and big suited cards and trapping this opponent. In some cases, you will get more than just the tilto caught in the trap. This will happen when your opponents get caught up with the fact that they think they have the tilto beat and they ignore you when you have entered the pot already or when an opponent is acting after the tilto and you are acting after both players with a big hand. This is especially true in no-limit poker. Don't get caught up in gambling with the tilto. Sit and wait for a big hand and try to get all his money in. He won't shut down on you even if you are playing solid. Remember.....he is on tilt. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, Aisthesis, 19. Nov 2003 09:25 | ||
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| Thanks to both of you for your suggestions. I'm still a little unsure on just how premium one's hands need to be here, and it no doubt varies a lot depending on what the tilt player is really doing. In my experience there usually is method to the madness, but it's not always easy to figure out what the method is. I do think one has to take reasonable gambles in order to succeed. Here's another example: A tilto was going all-in pre-flop about 20% of the time. I figure he's going with moderately high cards, possibly any A or any K, but he's doing it too often for it to be restricted to pairs. And nobody else at the table was willing to call him down, so we didn't have any hard evidence yet. After several rounds of this, I get pocket TT, the guy goes all-in, I call. He turns over KTs, no K on the board, so I win. While I obviously got involved with quite a risk there, I felt like that was justified. With my tilto of last night, he never went all-in pre-flop but for a long time anyway was seeing every flop, then frequently going all-in, particularly when 2 other players who had provoked him were in the pot. I concluded several things on this one: 1) Never raise pre-flop regardless of holdings. If I had been so fortunate as to get pocket AA in this situation, I was just going to stay quiet, hope that he went all in, and then call pretty much regardless of flop. 2) Be picky about pockets but not overpicky. I do think suited connectors became completely irrelevant in this situation (although I had tried them once or twice before realizing this). But high cards of any kind (even the "trouble hands" like KJo) or pairs I decided were worth seeing a flop with--also AXs and KXS, with the hope of being on a flush when the all-in happens. Basically, a lot of money is being thrown around. If you wait for the super-premium hands like, say, AA, KK, AK, it just seems to me like you're missing too many opportunities. The best hand I got during this whole time was a QQ, on which I limped. Then when AKX flopped and a non-tilt player to my right bet, I had to throw it away. Then there was the additional problem of figuring out how the non-tilt players were adjusting their strategies. The tilto was clearly dominating the table, but some others were indeed raising a little pre-flop. And I was so busy trying to figure out the tilto that I didn't really know whether these were provocation raises or whether that meant something along the lines of at least high-ish pairs. But it got quite complex with on the one hand trying to be there with a good hand when the tilto hit all in and at the same time also having to play against non-tilt opponents with rather unclear adjustments to their standard plays. So, anyhow, after all this, I do think it's perhaps important to distinguish between pre- and post-flop tiltos. The former I find much easier to read. I wish one could form some set of profiles of typical tilt behavior patterns. It would make it much easier if one had a few typical tilt styles with ready strategies for dealing with them. Hopefully we'll get some more ideas out there on this. With what has been said up to now, I wonder if you're not being a little overpicky with the starting hands in this situation, Grant. It sounded at least like you weren't happy with some of my suggested starters... would be interested to hear which ones. I'm just a bit concerned, as mentioned above, that if you restrict yourself to something like AQ or better or pairs JJ and up, you'd miss seeing too many potentially profitable flops with this kind of post-flop tilt and hence miss getting one's share of the money being thrown around. I tend to agree with TD that you have to take risks--you just have to make sure on the all-in pots that you're always the one with the superior odds. | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 09:51 | ||
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| Aisthesis, The problem most players make when playing up against a player on tilt is they "try" to beat him and only him. They play much more hands then they normally would just to try to get lucky and bust the man on tilt. In order to profitably beat players on tilt in the long run you need to be a great player, and not just THINK you know what your doing. There is much more science and art involved when your playing with a reckless player. You need to be much more selective and wait for your spots to get the guy. The problem with playing with players like this is if you run a little bad against him and lose a couple of pots you will soon find yourself on tilt because your losing to such a garbage player and next thing you know you will be losing just as many pots as him. It is general nature for humans, especially poker players to be "greedy" and want to capitalize on a situation like this and play any hand that has a chance just to get to him before other players do. The first thing you need to do when coming in contact with a player like this is get down his betting patterns and practice by putting him on hands before you start to get fancy with him. AND DON'T TRY TO PUT A MOVE ON HIM, OUTPLAY HIM. MOST LIKELY YOU WILL NEED TO SHOW DOWN THE BEST HAND D | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, Aisthesis, 19. Nov 2003 10:31 | ||
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| I agree fully--except I would assume it's not just "usually" that you're going to showdown but always. And the other players are also a dimension to the thing which can add a lot of complications to the issue. Actually, one reasonable strategy is to just avoid the tilt player pretty much altogether and try and take some money from the normal players whose game has been thrown off by the dominant tilt player. If possible, it's probably a good idea to keep both aspects in mind here, but it does create a complex situation. Do you think I'm being too liberal in my suggested starters here? I'm definitely not advocating playing any trash hands and am throwing out some that I would normally play. Also, if you don't mind, check out my "tilt profiles" post. That's pretty much my experience up to now, and I wonder how it corresponds to that of other players with more experience in dealing with such situations. | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, Danny A, 19. Nov 2003 10:57 | ||
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| Well I also sort of disagree with avoiding the tilt player. Players on tilt "throwing a party" are some of the great assets to poker. You just need to know how to deal with them and have the world of patience. If you don't know how to deal with them properly then yes, maybe staying away is the safest way to go. | ||
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| Re: profitting from tilt, Aisthesis, 19. Nov 2003 15:52 | ||
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| Is there any good literature on this (specifically in NL, where the risks are obviously very high)? Surely there is... Has Roy or Mike maybe dealt with this issue anywhere? The issue is really starting to interest me, as tilters are an obvious way to make big money quite fast--although often at very high risk. Pending any references to some good work already done on this topic, I'll propose a postulate with two corollaries: "Aisthesis' Postulate": In dealing with tiltos, one should consistently call an all-in with any holdings that will beat the tilter's AVERAGE all-in hand at least 50% of the time. This is a pretty aggressive tilt policy, but in the long-run, that seems to me the way to maximize gains--although one is definitely going to lose (big) on a fair number of these hands. I guess there's also a presupposition involved here--namely, that the best policy is the one with maximum long-term gain, despite the risk factor. Corollary 1: Against a "pre-flop" tilter who is going in more than 15% of the time, call with any pocket pair as well as AK or AQ (bearing in mind that even AK will lose normally to ANY pocket pair, including 22) Corollary 2: Against a pre-flop tilter who is going in less than 15% of the time, call the all-in ONLY with a pocket pair 88-AA (possibly even more restrictive depending on frequency of the all-in). Critique as well as references to any good literature on this would be most welcome! | ||
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