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Server Time: 11/20/2008 12:04:58 PM PACIFIC |
 Buying my first poker book, Robert M, 18. Nov 2003 12:31 | ||
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| Okay, it's time for me to order my first book on poker. I was reading the reviews on Amazon.com and from what I gather, Doyle's "Super System" is outdated and Phil Helmuth's book is pretty useless. I play alot of PL and NL HE'. I will buy Caro's book of tells, just to help me read people who I have detemined read Caro's book of tells. Does anyone else have any recomendations? TY in advance -----------------------R | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, mkpoker, 18. Nov 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I'm a bit confused because you say you're buying your first book but already play a lot of NL. So I'm not sure if you're a beginnner or not. If you are a beginner, I'd stick to limit play at first and read either Lee Jones', Lou Krieger's, or Ken Warren's introductory books. Sometimes, smart beginners resist these introductory books because they want to progress faster. Don't fall into that trap. If you play LL exactly as prescribed in these books, you'll be a consistent winner. If you're not a beginner, I'd definitely get M/S Theory of Poker and Hold 'em for Advanced Players. For mid-Limit HE, Ciaffone & Brier's mid-limit book is the best. I don't play PL or NL, so can't offer any advice there. Good luck! | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Robert M, 18. Nov 2003 13:25 | ||
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| Well, I've been playing for 4 years, but I have only been good (profitible) for about 1 year. I have learned from other players, including this forum, and mostly from online reading. However, the game is what it is, odds are what they are, and people act how people act, so I am mostly self taught through experience. I would say thet my strengths are reading other players, good use of position, agressiveness, and deception. My faults are that I sometimes play into traps and that I go on tilt every now and then. What is the best book out there dealing more with the psychological aspects of hold'em poker? TY--------------R | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, ReMMy, 18. Nov 2003 13:31 | ||
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| /me wonders where Ace is... | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Bungus, 22. Nov 2003 23:44 | ||
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| hehehe.. Lurking if the shadows, waiting for the right moment to spam us out of the UPF... | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, noiseboy, 18. Nov 2003 15:14 | ||
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| Since you've been playing big bet poker for years and have become profitable at it, I'd say you need Super System. It sounds like you are the type of aggressive player who would benefit from it. As far as it being "outdated" the only things I might change is that I like to raise with big pairs most of the time and Brunson may over-value the small connectors a bit. If you are mainly concerned about tells, I'd spend a bit extra and get the video instead of the book. It covers the same material, but it's easier to see what he's talking about on video. Also, keep in mind that tells are never absolute and vary from player to player, Caro just gives you a lot of examples of what to look for. | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, noiseboy, 18. Nov 2003 15:16 | ||
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| I think when people talk about Super System being outdated, they are mainly referring to the fact that it covers a lot of games that have changed over the years, and games that hardly anybody plays, like high low without a qualifier for example. The NL section is timeless. | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Formless, 18. Nov 2003 18:25 | ||
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| You need Zen And The Art Of Poker by Larry W. Phillips. | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, FeliciaLee, 21. Nov 2003 16:19 | ||
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| The Psychology of Poker by Dr. Alan Shoonmaker Inside the Poker Mind by Dr. John Feeney Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, magnus, 18. Nov 2003 15:25 | ||
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| Different book are good for different things, here is my (current) take on it: Introduction: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones Theory: The Theory of Poker by David Sklansky Tournament Theory: Tournament Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky Mindset: Killer Poker by John Vorhaus Why (and why not!) become a professional poker player: Poker Nation by Andy Bellin The Bible: Super System by Doyle Brunson (I'm sure this will change or be expanded as I read more books....) -Magnus | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, SpaceAce, 19. Nov 2003 02:17 | ||
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| I don't know who told you that Super/System is outdated but they're full of it. If you read that in Amazon.com reviews, I would take it with a grain of salt. Super/System is a fantastic book with a lot of timeless information that is applicable to your game today and will probably still be golden advice for your grandchildren. I have to agree that Hellmuth's book is pretty useless. It's an OK read but I don't think you'll improve your game by reading it. Even though you say you play a lot of PL and NL, I think you should read the Lee Jones book Winning Low Limit Hold'Em. There is a lot of useful raw information in it. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, FeliciaLee, 21. Nov 2003 16:29 | ||
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| I agree with Space. There is still a lot of fantastic information to be found in the SS. I think that playing NL as loose as Doyle, in this day and age of more educated NL players, would be suicide, but that is the only glaring outdated material I can find in either the Limit, NLHE or Stud sections. The Stud section is still very applicable to today, since things haven't changed much in Stud over the years. No one has ever accused Chip Reese of not being a great player, lol, and even though most people know the "advanced" plays he writes about, they are still good. Unfortunately, the Stud HL section has fared the worst. Not only has Stud gone to a qualifier for low, but it has gone from a nine-low to an eight-low, since that time. When Sklansky wrote the Stud section, there WAS no qualfier, period. Draw is not played much anymore, so Caro's section is for those who are maybe playing Draw online, or still finding the occasional games in California. The great thing about a book like the SS, is that the conventional wisdom, the all-around poker "theory" contained in the book, is ageless. I do not know one serious poker player who doesn't own SS. Right now you may be abl to find the SS very cheaply, as Doyle, along with several collaborators, are working on an updated book. Good luck! Felicia :) My Poker Journal: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FeliciaLee | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Robert M, 20. Nov 2003 11:45 | ||
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| Thankyou everybody. Okay, I will buy Super System, and Zen. I will hold off on slansky 'till later. And I will buy Caro's video. I hope it's available on DVD. TY-------------R | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, philly, 21. Nov 2003 12:00 | ||
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| If your playing a lot of pl and nl, you should check out "Pot Limit and No Limit Poker" by ciaffone and reuben. | ||
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| Hold em learning curve (books), timmer, 23. Nov 2003 17:49 | ||
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| Here's my take on things . If you are a true beginner I think Kreiger's book(s) on hold em are best closely followed by Jones's hold em book These books might not be 100% mathamatically correct in every instance (not my opinion ) but provide a solid guide to basic play and poker understanding in the game of Texas Hold Em Poker. after studying either or both these books for a fair amount of time you might want to go to Hold Em Poker by the 2+2 crew. About this same time get, The Psychology of Poker by Dr. Al Schoonmaker ( a internationally published Industrial Psychologist and personal friend of mine) which is also a 2+2 publications. At this same level You also might want to pick up Caros major poker seminar on video. and fundemental secrets book . Also perhaps the newest version of Body language of poker (and perhaps you could even get the tells video set as well) if you are playing in real cardrooms. (Both highly regarded MCU publications) Your next leap is to The Theory of Poker , Jim Brier's ( another close aquantice of mine) Middle Limit Poker (for examples) and Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players (all 2+2 publications). Also at this level I would highly recommend Roy Cookes Real Poker II - The Play of the Hands. MCU Publishing. It is not just because I count Roy as a friend and business associate that I make this recommendation. It is because although I am primarily a stud player I found this book to be of immense benefit to my game and as sort of a "how to" guide into playing the player, advanced my understanding of poker theory and practice in general. It is my contention that this book is highly under-rated . Most players regardless of which game they play would make huge gains by studying its content. And remember you dont have to be a high limit player to be a highly skilled player. Although following this study plan will be a hugh step towards acheiving both these goals. timmer | ||
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| Re: 7 stud learning curve (books), timmer, 23. Nov 2003 21:45 | ||
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| For 7 stud I would recommend a similar learning path. For the rank beginner I would recommend Percy's 7 card Stud the waiting game. Closely followed by Roy West's 7 card stud 42 lessons. After studying these works intently for a fair amount of time and getting several hundred hours of playing in I would suggest moving to the next level of study. At this level I would suggest similar topics such as Psychology of poker by Dr.Al Schoonmaker (2+2) publishing. With Caro's classic work The Body language of Poker (especially for B&M players) his major poker seminar video and fundamental secrets book. I would also suggest rounding out this level of study with Caro's 11 Days to 7 stud success workbook. ( all four MCU publishing). As a side bar I feel a student of this game might want to avail his or her self to Caro's other work on 7 card stud. A work entitled 7 card stud report although many of these concepts are partially contained in 2+2's 7 card Stud for Advanced Players it does offer additional insights on hand reading and is a excellent primer for taking your understanding of this complex game to the next level. After thoroughly familiarizing ones self with the contents of these works I would suggest The Theory of Poker and Seven Card Stud for Advanced player (2+2) publishing . As well as a well known book titled Seven Card Stud Poker by a man named Konstantin Othmer. These three titles will do wonders to open your eyes to the limitless possibilities of varying plays that this largely undefined poker game offers. Beyond this I would recommend High Low Split poker by Ray Zee and the 2+2 crew and the Razz section ( written by my good neighbor Linda Johnson) of the rarely recommended Championship Stud from Cardsmith Publishing. 7 card stud offers truly limitless opportunities to vary ones play. I truly believe this is the most complex form of poker bar none. One with layer heaped upon layer of complexities, many of which have barely been scratched by popular poker literature. I would really like to see a Play of the Hands type book for 7 stud. But as it is 7 Studs popularity has been largely overshadowed by that of Texas Hold em. and other forms of poker stud and otherwise. So I doubt that this work will surface for some time now. Another reason is by in large stud players are a fairly secretive bunch and don't want to offer up many of their hard learned tidbits of information on this mathematically daunting and extremely volatile, yet highly rewarding form of poker. timmer | ||
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| Re: 7 stud learning curve (books), 4 POKER, 23. Nov 2003 23:09 | ||
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| on 23. Nov 2003 21:45 timmer wrote: > For 7 stud I would recommend a similar learning path. > > For the rank beginner I would recommend Percy's 7 card Stud the waiting game. Closely > followed by Roy West's 7 card stud 42 lessons. > > After studying these works intently for a fair amount of time and getting several hundred > hours of playing in I would suggest moving to the next level of study. > > At this level I would suggest similar topics such as Psychology of poker by Dr.Al > Schoonmaker (2+2) publishing. With Caro's classic work The Body language of Poker > (especially for B&M players) his major poker seminar video and fundamental secrets book. I > would also suggest rounding out this level of study with Caro's 11 Days to 7 stud success > workbook. ( all four MCU publishing). > > As a side bar I feel a student of this game might want to avail his or her self to > Caro's other work on 7 card stud. A work entitled 7 card stud report although many of > these concepts are partially contained in 2+2's 7 card Stud for Advanced Players it does > offer additional insights on hand reading and is a excellent primer for taking your > understanding of this complex game to the next level. > > After thoroughly familiarizing ones self with the contents of these works I would suggest > The Theory of Poker and Seven Card Stud for Advanced player (2+2) publishing . As well as > a well known book titled Seven Card Stud Poker by a man named Konstantin Othmer. These > three titles will do wonders to open your eyes to the limitless possibilities of varying > plays that this largely undefined poker game offers. > > Beyond this I would recommend High Low Split poker by Ray Zee and the 2+2 crew and the > Razz section ( written by my good neighbor Linda Johnson) of the rarely recommended > Championship Stud from Cardsmith Publishing. > > 7 card stud offers truly limitless opportunities to vary ones play. I truly believe this > is the most complex form of poker bar none. One with layer heaped upon layer of > complexities, many of which have barely been scratched by popular poker literature. > > I would really like to see a Play of the Hands type book for 7 stud. But as it is 7 Studs > popularity has been largely overshadowed by that of Texas Hold em. and other forms of > poker stud and otherwise. So I doubt that this work will surface for some time now. > Another reason is by in large stud players are a fairly secretive bunch and don't want to > offer up many of their hard learned tidbits of information on this mathematically daunting > and extremely volatile, yet highly rewarding form of poker. > > timmer Good post. Although, 7 card stud is still very popular here on the east coast in AC and in Foxwoods. In fact, it's right up there with hold-em. But in on-line poker, it isn't. I for one feel that the game plays best, when it's played live - and if you ever need to get your fill of 7 stud, just take a trip to AC and you'll be amazed at how popular this game still is - any limit you wish! 4P- | ||
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| Re: 7 stud learning curve (books), docholdiay420, 21. Jan 2004 14:51 | ||
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| me too I'm from ct and play 7 exclusively. i was taught this game from an early age, and I think hold em only good as no limit. Out east it is still very big and for playing online I found party poker the only site with a fair amount of tables. Hold em is the crowd favorte but is a different game with position betting. I like seven better and to get my fix I play at party or foxwoods. Hold 'em I say exclusively for nl tournaments. It's a more patient game, butmore steady n wis. I win 90% of time with it while hold em is 50/50. A lot of people who like hold em have only been playing poker for a view years and just like what they see on tv like american idol. | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, ADAM THE EXPERT, 23. Nov 2003 22:14 | ||
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| SOME YEARS AGO, THERE WAS A BOOK CALLED " FROM THE KITCHEN TABLE, TO THE TOURNAMENT FINAL TABLE. THIS WAS ONE OF THE FEW BOOKS, THAT ADAM THE EXPERT LIKED. I JUST HAD A STUDENT PICK ONE UP IN LAS VEGAS, SO I KNOW IT'S STILL AVAILABLE. CA'NT REMEMBER THE AUTHOR, AND I GAVE AWAY MY COPY. RATHER THAN ANY SPECIFIC BOOK, IT'S BEST TO STICK TO CERTAIN AUTHORS, AND TO STEER AWAY, FROM OTHERS BE VERY CAREFUL, TO ANYONE WHO IS A STRONG ADVOCATE, OF SMALL CARDS, IN HOLD EM. THESE PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS, WHO ARE ATTEMPTING TO POISON THE WORLD, WITH THEIR "PET" THEORIES IT'S HARD TO GO WRONG, WITH CARO, ANYTHING BY HIM, IS VERY INFORMATIVE, AND HIGHLY-ENTERTAINING | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Robert M, 25. Nov 2003 14:54 | ||
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| Thankyou Timmer, ADAM, 4poker, Space, Felicia, Philly, MK, Noiseboy, Remmy and Bungus. Your advice is far, far more insightful than the reviews on Amazon.com. I would still ike to hear Lee Schuster's opinion, he seems to be a great "odds" calculator. TY------------------------------------R | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Schuster, 26. Nov 2003 08:47 | ||
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| Heh a special request... I don't have a lot to add from what the others put down. A lot of it depends on what you want to learn. My personal favorites so far have been The Theory of Poker by Sklansky and Malmuth (a must read) and Middle Limit Hold'em by Ciaffone and Brier. If you're playing no limit, that section of Super System is pretty good, but it will be much better once you are already a decent no limit player in my opinion. There's just too much to absorb as a novice. For the psychological aspect, I've heard good reviews on Jon Vorhaus's Killer Poker and Alan Schoonmaker's book, The Psychology of Poker. I haven't read either one, but from what I've read, each of them seem to be very knowledgable authors. Zen and the Art of Poker is very good for tilt, and it's usually pretty cheap. I picked up a copy for five bucks. Hope this helps Robert! Lee | ||
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| Re: Buying my first poker book, Bond18, 8. Dec 2003 16:00 | ||
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| Championship no limit and pot limit hold'em by TJ cloutier and Tom McCovy, i LOVE THAT BOOK FOR NL!! | ||
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