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Server Time: 11/20/2008 1:09:16 PM PACIFIC |
 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Alan Merriam, 16. Nov 2003 17:06 | ||
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| Hi, 1st. I'm not a professional poker player. 2nd. I submit this for your considerations, comments, and the joy of communication. Point 1 The 1BB per hour wisdom seems to be deeply ingrained in the poker folklore. I see it quoted quite often in this forum. A solid professional player should expect to earn about 1BB per hour. This handy rule of thumb seems to have been around for years. It certainly predates the rise of online poker. I can only assume the 1BB standard used to refer to B&M tables. Point 2 Online Poker tables deal MANY more hands an hour than a traditional B&M. Hypothetically, lets say twice as fast and we will call it 20 hands in B&M and 40 hands online. (If anyone has actual statistics for this, it would be interesting.) This means that an online professional needs to earn 1/40th BB per hand while a B& M professional needs to earn 1/20th BB per hand. Point 3 Assuming an equal (or lesser) caliber of players, the B&M professional will earn twice as much online. A player with a 1BB rate in a B&M will earn 2BB online. Discussion Questions 1. Is the 1 BB rule obsolete? Should the rule be qualified to reflect whether it is online or Brick and Mortar? 2. Does the online environment allow lower skilled poker players to make a living because they only need to earn at half the rate of their B&M peers? (1/20th BB per hand vs. 1/40th per hand) 3. Do people rise to the level of their challenges? If so, since the bar for Online is lower, does this mean that the professional online poker player will have lesser developed skills than the B&M player or will the additional number of hands make up for the lack of challenges. I have my opinions. What are yours? 1. The 1 BB rule should always be qualified. 2. The online environment allows lower skilled players to make a living. 3. The B&M player will always be more competitive in live poker than the online player, They will be equal in the online environment. Hoping for a good discussion. Alan No sense being pessimistic, it probably wouldn't work anyway. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Lee Vaughn, 16. Nov 2003 21:17 | ||
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| I think the 1-2 BB per hr ratio is still fairly accurate. Even though you can play more hands online you still in theory are winning (and loosing) the same percentage of these hands So yes, if you normally win say 4 pots and hour you would in theory win 8 pots online, but you will also be in the blinds twice as often, can and fold after the flop twice as often, get sucked out on twice as often etc. Two things that do make a difference to your online expectations would be 1) no tokes and 2) the ability to play multiple tables. These two factors will influence your BB/hr ratio and typically make it greater than your B & M avg. The lack of tokes alone can turn a break even player into a consistent winner. Factor in lack of travel expenses, no jackpot drops etc. and you can make a strong case that online play is more 'profitable' than B & M play. Ofcourse online play has it's own 'costs' to consider such as the ease which one can become distracted, lack of physical tells, and the possibility of minor collusion and maybe everything balances out. All that being said, I think the 1-2 BB win rate is still fairly accurate, with online play giving you a very slight increased rate. The main thing is to keep solid records and find out what your own actually win rate is. Every player is different and certain players are going to play better in certain environments. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Carlk73, 17. Nov 2003 05:29 | ||
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| Hello, I've been playing online poker for only a few months, but I do feel that the 1BB an hour at the lower limits (e.g. 2/4, 3/6) is way off the mark. If you are a successful online player and feel you can beat most of the tables you sit at (i.e. you've done a lot of homework), then you'll more likely be making 3-5BB per hour. Please correct me if I'm wrong , but based on my own limited experience these returns are certainly not outlandish. Carlk73 | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, noiseboy, 17. Nov 2003 09:42 | ||
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| It doesn't seem outlandish at all, if you are getting twice as many hands, that's 2BB hr or so for one table. If you can do 3, then simple math says that 6BB is the upper limit. However, you quite eek out as big a win at each table if you are playing three because you won't be able to observe the players and make reads as well so you reduce your win rate a bit. 3-5BB seems about right against loose competition. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, spartan51, 17. Nov 2003 08:24 | ||
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| Hi Alan, The 1BB/Hr cannot be applied the same for online and B&M. As you indicate, a person can play at least as twice as many hands per hour online than B&M. Couple this fact, with the ability to play multiple tables and it makes online play extremely more profitably. I have played 54,410 hands online over the past 100 days. This was done part-time, on average 3-4 hours per night. I was able to play this high number of hands due to the ability of being able to play 3 tables at once. This totals 311 hours of play, averaging 175 hands per hour. During this time period my win rate is 4.59 BB/per hour. Another way to state my win rate is 1.53 BB/per hour/per table. (For online play, I feel this is a more accurate way to state win rate.) Assuming if I could play 30 hands an hour at a B&M, it would take me 1813 hours of B&M play to get in 54,410 hands. It would take playing full time, 40 hours a week for 45 1/2 weeks at a B&M to equal the results I have achieved in my last 100 days of online play. Hope this is helpful, spartan51 | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, noiseboy, 17. Nov 2003 09:39 | ||
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| You be jammin! I'm just now getting used to playing multiple tables, hopefully when I get better at it, I will get up to where you are. BTW, how high do you get away with 3 tables? It seems easier in the loose games where most decisions are simple pot odds vs. chances of making a hand. In aggressive games which require a lot of bluffing and short-handed play, I'm not messing with more than one table just yet. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, spartan51, 17. Nov 2003 10:55 | ||
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| Hi noiseboy, That is all $3/$6. Just this past week I have been mixing in one table of $5/$10 to see if I can have similar results at that level. Thanks, spartan51 | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, ADAM THE EXPERT, 17. Nov 2003 08:35 | ||
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| GEEEEEZE LOUISE, SO MANY QUESTIONS, IN ONLY ONE POST!!! BUT, YOU ASK A VERY VALID QUESTION (WHICH WILL BE COVERED, IN MY NEW BOOK) FIRST OF ALL, THE WHOLE NOTION OF THE "ONE BIG BET PER HOUR" WAS PROMALGATED BY THE "BIG TWO" AUTHORS, YOU KNOW WHO THEY ARE. AND, IS BASED MORE ON THE "HARD ROCKS" OF LAS VEGAS, WHERE THEY LIVE AND PLAY. JUST LIKE MIKE CARO SAYS, AND HONEST LIST, WILL HAVE 7, OR 12 THINGS ON IT, NOT AN EVEN TEN. ASK YOURSELF, WHAT ARE THE ODDS, THAT THE EARNINGS OF A SKILLED PROFESSIONAL, JUST HAPPEN TO BE EXACTLY ONE BIG BET. WHY NOT .94 OR 1.12 BIG BETS?? THIS IS JUST A FIGURE, INVENTED BY SOMEONE, AND REPEATED OFTEN ENOUGH, THAT IT IS ALMOST UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED, AS TRUTH. THE FACT IS, THAT THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN PLAYERS ARE SO GREAT, THAT YOU REALLY CAN'T SET A FIGURE. AND BE THE WAY, WHEN THIS CONCEPT FIRST CAME OUT. IT WAS: ONE TO ONE AND A HALF BIG BETS. I REMEMBER READING THE CARD PLAYER ARTICLE, WAY , WAY BACK. SO, HERE IS ADAM THE EXPERT'S STATEMENT ON THIS ISSUE. SOMEONE WHO IS GOOD, BUT NOT GREAT, WILL PROBABLY EARN ABOUT THREE QUARTERS, TO ONE BIG BET PER HOUR, IN 'REAL" CASINOS. BUT, A GREAT PLAYER, WHO UNDERSTANDS THE GAME FULLY, AND KNOWS ALL THE TRICKS, CAN EARN MORE LIKE 2, TO 2.5 BIG BETS PER HOUR. NOW, ONLINE PLAY, IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT. YOUR FIGURE, OF "TWICE AS FAST" IS A LITTLE HIGH. MOST GAMES ARE MORE LIKE "SIXTY PERCENT FASTER" BUT, THE SAVINGS OF TOKES, AND THE FACT THE THE PLAYERS ARE COMPLETLY, TOTALLY HOPELESS, MEANS THAT THE EXPERT, CAN MAKE ALMOST EXACTLY TWICE THAT OF "REAL" CASINOS. THIS IS FURTHER STRENGTHENED, BY THE FACT THAT THE PLAYERS, ARE THE RARE, BUT MUCH-COVETED "ACTION" HOPELESS PLAYERS, RATHER THAN "PASSIVE" HOPELESS PLAYERS. OH MY GOD!!!! DOES THIS MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!! WHEN YOU HAVE CHECK RAISE BLUFFERS, RERAISE BLUFFERS, AND PEOLE WHO BET AND RAISE, RATHER THAN JUST CHECK AND CALL, YOU CAN MAKE A KILLING!!!!!! CURRENTLY, AFTER THE FIRST 150 SESSIONS, I AM MAKING 5.6 BIG BETS PER HOUR, IN MY BEST GAME TEN TWENTY OMAHA!!! NOW KIDS, SORRY TO TELL YOU, BUT DON'T EXPECT THIS FIGURE. I AM THE BEST OMAHA PLAYER, IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD, AND BY FAR, THE NUMBER ONE AUTHORITY IN THE WORLD, IN THIS GAME. NO ONE, COULD EVEN COME CLOSE. BUT, IF YOU MASTER THE GAME, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO SQUEEZE OUT 3.5 OR SO. IN THE SMALLER GAMES, WHERE THE PLAYERS ARE INSANELY BAD, YOU MIGHT EVEN BE ABLE TO GET AS HIGH, AS 6 OR 7 BIG BETS PER HOUR. I MEAN, REALLY, THE OTHER DAY, IN 3-6 OMAHA, I ACTUALLY HAD A PLAYER CALL MY FULL HOUSE, ON THE RIVER, WITH A 10 9 HIGH!!! THE FINAL BOARD WAS 4 4 6 K Q IT WAS ALMOST A PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY, FOR HIM TO WIN, UNLESS I HAD ONE OF THE VERY FEW FOUR CARD COMBINATIONS, THAT HE COULD BEAT. (23 5 7, 2 3 7 9 , 5 7 8 9, 2 3 7 9, ETC.) IF YOU HAVE NOT PLAYED OMAHA, YOU MAY NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND, JUST HOW BAD THIS IS. TODAY, IN A MULTI TABLE TOURNAMENT, I HAD A PLAYER CALL ALL THEIR CHIPS, WHEN THEY HAD ABOUT TRIPLE THE ORIGINAL STARTING AMOUNT, WITH A PAIR OF DEUCES WITH A FLOP OF K 4 8, I HAD ACE KING!!!!! NOW, THAT, IS REALLY, REALLY BAD!!!! WHEN PEOPLE ARE PLAYING LIKE THIS, THE "ONE BIG BET PER HOUR" EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE IN NON INTERNET GAMES IS COMPLETLY THROWN OUT THE WINDOW. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Flatout_Mainiac, 17. Nov 2003 08:40 | ||
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| 1. Assuming everything is equal and you were shown on average twice as many hands per hour online you would think that your BB/hr rate would be double as it is simple math. I think a better statistic for comparing B&M to Online is BB/hands. Do people on average win more per 100 hands in a B&M than online. Does the smaller rake and no tokes outweigh the almost complete lack of tell and the home distractions? 2. I think online poker does allow less skilled player to make a living. Just because of the availablity to play anytime, anywhere. A slightly better than breakeven player can turn a .3BB per hour rate to a .5BB rate online and play twice long and multple games to eek out a living. 3. I think people in general will play better in an environment that they are comfortable playing in. I think a B&M shark that never plays online would have some difficulty against strong online players as the game looks like "playstation" and those tells that he hardly noticed that he even picked up on in a B&M game are suddenly gone. The opposite is true for an online player. The magic of a casino can be intoxicating making it difficult to focus and play ones game. The game become a living and breathing dance with pesonalities and tells. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, timmer, 17. Nov 2003 09:25 | ||
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| how do you define an hour? is that a hour sitting at the table? an hour in deep poker contemplation or study? an hour comprised of hands where your in action? the thing is that if you feel you are not making enough money over a fair period of time I suggest you study more intently and do some real work on you game ( selection discipline etc.) if you feel you are making too much well I guess you can give some away to poor, disadvantaged, or crippled childen. If you are winning at all in the long run (especially against Low limit brick and mortor rooms) you are in the top 2% to 5% of the poker players nation wide. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Flatout_Mainiac, 17. Nov 2003 10:15 | ||
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| Wow! I am rather surprised at the fact that that the percentage of players that win long-term in LL is so low. Is this because solid players gradually move up or the cost is so high relative to win amounts? | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Alan Merriam, 17. Nov 2003 12:09 | ||
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| That is one hour sitting at a table (virtual or not). If you are paying blinds, you are playing poker. This discussion wasn't really about my poker winnings which are relatively minor. I play 5 & 10 SNG tourneys and average about $1 a game. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Jordan, 18. Nov 2003 15:18 | ||
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| an hour is 60 minutes. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, noiseboy, 17. Nov 2003 09:33 | ||
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| Well in theory, twice as many hands per hour means twice as much earn rate. However, the players in B&M casinos tend to be much worse in general, at least here in CA, I haven't really played much in Vegas or other places. I've played 15/30 games here that were looser than online 3/6 games, no joking (althought there is a lot more aggression). So I tend to make more at B&M even though the games are slower. | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, ICIP, 18. Nov 2003 10:01 | ||
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| Overall, this issue is pretty simple. Online, the 1 to 1.5 BB per hour is out the window. Mainly due to the increase in number of hands and the ability to play multiple tables. Number of hands per hour is generally in the range of 2 to 3 times what it is in a B&M. I don't necessarily agree with playing lots of multiple tables. You may be able to win at multiple tables, but you are loosing valuable information about the players you are playing against. If you play 1 table you might have a win rate of 3 BB/hr, 2 tables @ 2 BB/hr, and 3 tables at .75 BB/hr. For each table you add, you will probably lose some of that expectation, so you should proceed cautiously playing multiple tables. Personally, I play NL so I only play one table at a time. I have tried two at a time, but find it hard to watch for the ebb and flow of how people are playing. Which means I lose valuable information which cause me to make more mistakes, and in NL a single mistake can mean your whole stack. Plus, I think Flatout_Mainiac is right on with online players have problems with B&M and vice versa. Each one requires slightly different skills, so it can be hard to go between each. Overall, though, the 1 to 1.5 BB/hr is probably reasonable for B&M, but not for online. I think people are still trying to figure this out. Still, the most can still be made live due to the stakes people are willing to play live. Online is raising the stakes up, and will soon catch up. ICIP | ||
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| Re: 1BB per hr and Online vs. B&M Thoughts, Bond18, 19. Nov 2003 16:00 | ||
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| With the ability to play mutliple tables and players who are beatable playing mathematical poker and nothing to fancy one BB per hour is a B&M phrase only now if you ask me. I think B&M players will obviously end up with better reading ability as well as poker faces as they are face to face with opposition, while online you can scream "CALL CALL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD I GOT A BOAT" and joeschmoe from idaho has no idea what hes walking into. Add in the fact that on average online games tend to be slightly fishier because hey, you don't actually have to throw your money in that pot you just press a button and the 1 BB per hour can become 1.5 or 2. | ||
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