UPF - Let's talk PLO8 - Good moves or not

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Let's talk PLO8 - Good moves or not, Andrew W, 14. Nov 2003 14:25
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Let's talk PLO8.... Two hands here, I did very well in the session, but wonder whether I made good calls or got lucky. UB 25 buy in tables - I always buy in for $10. Call me cheap. I will go over one where I mucked a strong hand, and one where I made a crying call and got paid off big. Exhibit A - I'm in EP with $30.90 - mostly other similar stacks, some reallylow ones, and one $52 stack. I get dealt this hand revlovejoy: 7h Ks Js Kd I know this is not really a great omaha8 hand, but it's been easy to get in this game for the 25cent BB without a lot of major preflop raising. Flop (board: Kh 9c 8d): Top trips with related straight cards, I bet the pot of $1.50 or so - 2 callers, 2 fold. 3 handed now. Turn (board: Kh 9c 8d Th): Now I have a straight, but not the nut straight. I bet $2.50 - both call. River (board: Kh 9c 8d Th 7s): revlovejoy bets $1.75. Grenin goes all-in for $.05. o-hole-ne raises to $17.80. revlovejoy folds. o-hole-ne is returned $16.05 (uncalled). Here I took my time, even typed in "JQ?" I cut my loss, and folded. Figured "why chase second best?" Result: both other players had same J high straight. So, I somewhat regretted folding, but I realized that had I called, I would have been gambling my whole stack on 2nd best, which if I made it, would have only split three ways anyway and only netted 1/3 of the bets of those who folded. So I judge it as a good fold. This is the frustration of PLO8 - you flop a good hand,it improves,and you still need to get out. EXHIBIT A - Did I assess this right? ---------------------------------------------------------------- EXHIBIT B- Gambled and got paid off. Or: right call. You be the judge Same crew as before, I've been at this table awhile and think I have a small level of a "read" on the table. But be careful, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Similar stack sizes - a few hands after last example. I'm in LP, one off button. revlovejoy: Tc Qs Jc Jd Again, not the best Omaha8 offering, would be great for Omaha high. But like I said, lots of limping in here for a quarter. 2 callers ahead of me, I call, button calls, blinds call and check. 7handed flop. Flop (board: Js 4s 8d): Once again I flop top trips. I know this almost always has to improve in PLO8, but I play it strong to isolate. 4 players check around. Guy next to me bets $1.75. I bet the pot limit of $7. Let's play some cards! next guy goes all in with $5.15. next 2 fold. Next 3 call - CALL mind you. Wow - 4 callers of a $7 bet. What do they have? Turn (board: Js 4s 8d Ks): CRAP - someone made the flush. I can still make boat or quads. all 4 of us check Weird - no one bet it. Maybe no one had the flush. I assume they don't, since slow playing a flush with that already big pot would be dangerous. River (board: Js 4s 8d Ks 7c): 2 check- badmoodbill goes all in for $17.40. Whoah- big bet.What's going on. He bet it big on flop, but was not interested in the flush. There is a straight possibility. I figure, he's betting the low. Checked the river since there was still a draw for low. So, I call. The checkers also call. I hold my breath. Without printing the whole sordid details of side pots and all that fun stuff that makes this such a quicker game online than it would be in a B&M, I cleaned up. My high of JJJ held up and I took down half of a $104.50 pot. I've just about doubled up on the hand. The nut low of A2 was of course quartered by 2 of the remaining players. The aggressor showed two pair for a high as well, no good of course. So my hunch that they were all betting the low was right, and I did well. The other two who won may have lost some ground, but with two others in the pot I think they weren't hurt too bad. 2 guys with absolutely nothing lost big. This is why I almost never draw to nut low only. I'll get quartered usually, win half of a small pot pre-slpit at best, and miss completely at worst. But as long as everyone else draws to it, I make money if I have the high by myself. So - EXHIBIT B - what say you, the jury? Was I right in calling or not?
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Re: Let's talk PLO8 - Good moves or not, Easy E, 14. Nov 2003 19:43
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on 14. Nov 2003 14:25 Andrew W wrote: > Let's talk PLO8.... Well, I don't play much PL or Omaha/8 lately, but I have a few comments. UB 25 buy in tables - I always buy in for $10. Call me > cheap. WHY do you do this? What do you gain by being short-stacked, less than half of the top buy-in? How can you threaten people with your stack if you don't HAVE a stack? I assume you do this for a reason other than being "cheap"- is it a safety valve for you? > Exhibit A - I'm in EP with $30.90 - mostly other similar stacks, some reallylow > ones, and one $52 stack. > > I get dealt this hand > revlovejoy: 7h Ks Js Kd > > I know this is not really a great omaha8 hand, but it's been easy to get in > this game for the 25cent BB without a lot of major preflop raising. With a high-only, 3-legged hand, why would you limp? Shouldn't you raise preflop to clarify hands, clear out some of the clutter AND build a pot that you can use for leverage if you actually DO flop the trips? > > Flop (board: Kh 9c 8d): > > Top trips with related straight cards, I bet the pot of $1.50 or so - 2 > callers, 2 fold. Sure, why not call for a buck-fifty? Would a check-raise (which would have given you something to work with, bet-wise) have had a chance? > Turn (board: Kh 9c 8d Th): > Now I have a straight, but not the nut straight. I bet $2.50 - both call. What do you accomplish with a half-pot bet here? > > River (board: Kh 9c 8d Th 7s): > revlovejoy bets $1.75. Grenin goes all-in for $.05. > o-hole-ne raises to $17.80. revlovejoy folds. > o-hole-ne is returned $16.05 (uncalled). That was a really stupid bet amount on his part > Result: both other players had same J high straight. did they have it on the turn, or was it the river (i assume the river) > > So, I somewhat regretted folding, Why? > EXHIBIT A - Did I assess this right? The fold at the end? most definately. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > revlovejoy: Tc Qs Jc Jd > > Again, not the best Omaha8 offering, would be great for Omaha high. But like I > said, lots of limping in here for a quarter. again, when you need the weapon of a bigger pot to raise on top of later, why are you limping with 1-way hands in Omaha/8? Are the players THAT weak? > > 2 callers ahead of me, I call, button calls, blinds call and check. > 7handed flop. > > Flop (board: Js 4s 8d): > Once again I flop top trips. I know this almost always has to improve in PLO8, > but I play it strong to isolate. This would have been more effective with a bigger pot preflop. look at all of the callers that you had that you didn't want to see, with the 2-low and flush out there. > next guy goes all in with $5.15. next 2 fold. Next 3 call - CALL mind you. Wow > - 4 callers of a $7 bet. What do they have? > > Turn (board: Js 4s 8d Ks): > > CRAP - someone made the flush. I can still make boat or quads. > > all 4 of us check > River (board: Js 4s 8d Ks 7c): > > 2 check- badmoodbill goes all in for $17.40. > > Whoah- big bet.What's going on. He bet it big on flop, but was not interested in the flush. OR he has A2s, locking up one half and can catch nut low to quarter the bottom half (and get someone to raise for him) so he slow plays, or missed a check-raise chance... and now goes all-in on the river. There is a straight possibility. > > I figure, he's betting the low. Checked the river since there was still a draw > for low. So, I call. THAT was a pretty brave call in PL, with 3 callers to go. What if someone reraised- what would you do? Again, were they THAT weak that you thought this was a good plan? I cleaned > up. My high of JJJ held up and I took down half of a $104.50 pot. I've just > about doubled up on the hand. The nut low of A2 was of course quartered by 2 of > the remaining players. The aggressor showed two pair for a high as well, no good > of course. > > So my hunch that they were all betting the low was right, and I did well. The > other two who won may have lost some ground, but with two others in the pot I > think they weren't hurt too bad. 2 guys with absolutely nothing lost big. > > This is why I almost never draw to nut low only. I'll get quartered usually, > win half of a small pot pre-slpit at best, and miss completely at worst. But as > long as everyone else draws to it, I make money if I have the high by myself. Only problem is that a strong low can push hands a lot harder than a flopped high, with all of the redraw possibilites, so you can often get caught for a maximum loss, it would seem, if you're playing one-way high hands. I'd stick with more two-way hands here, myself. > So - EXHIBIT B - what say you, the jury? Was I right in calling or not? Not an experienced PL player, but I question the call unless you had good reads and assumed passivity from the three players behind you (I can't believe the other A2 didn't reraise, unless he feared A2suited, or was in front of the other two callers. Anyone else?
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Re: Let's talk PLO8 - Good moves or not, Andrew W, 15. Nov 2003 08:46
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UB 25 buy in tables - I always buy in for $10. Call me > cheap. WHY do you do this? What do you gain by being short-stacked, less than half of the top buy-in? How can you threaten people with your stack if you don't HAVE a stack? I assume you do this for a reason other than being "cheap"- is it a safety valve for you? I've been thinking about this - and initially yes, it is a safety valve. I'm rather new to PL cash games, and I can limit my loss for buying in with less. But I've come to realize that is stupid thinking. If I go up and then lose it, I can't just say "I only lost $10" since it was my buy-in - I need to see all chips are part of my bankroll and worth protecting. So thanks for helping me clarify that - it's a bad habit I'm now breaking. Basically, it was my training wheels that kept me from blowing a $25 buy-in too fast. I stopped chasing half pots on draws, so that's not as big a problem as it was when I started. > Exhibit A - I'm in EP with $30.90 - mostly other similar stacks, some reallylow > ones, and one $52 stack. > > I get dealt this hand > revlovejoy: 7h Ks Js Kd > > I know this is not really a great omaha8 hand, but it's been easy to get in > this game for the 25cent BB without a lot of major preflop raising. With a high-only, 3-legged hand, why would you limp? Shouldn't you raise preflop to clarify hands, clear out some of the clutter AND build a pot that you can use for leverage if you actually DO flop the trips? Point well taken. I was thinking backwards from this. I guess AAK2 double suited is an obvious raiser, but could also be slow played - whereas you're saying a hand like this can be strong, but only in a limited pool, so raise it up- basic poker principle I failed to note. > > Flop (board: Kh 9c 8d): > > Top trips with related straight cards, I bet the pot of $1.50 or so - 2 > callers, 2 fold. Sure, why not call for a buck-fifty? Would a check-raise (which would have given you something to work with, bet-wise) have had a chance? Doubtful, this seemed to be a passive group - that perception was tested of course later with that $17 bet. Also, wouldn't check raising be riskier than betting? Omaha tends to be a drawing game more than hold em, or so I've read, and so I thought it was my job to make them pay to draw. With best hand, others probably want to draw, so I'd think a check raise would more likely yield more checks with no chance to raise. Just hindsight probably - but I don't really consider check-raising as a tool in omaha, and you've gotten me to think maybe I should. > Turn (board: Kh 9c 8d Th): > Now I have a straight, but not the nut straight. I bet $2.50 - both call. What do you accomplish with a half-pot bet here? Another good point- I have no idea. Without the nuts, I guess I was too afraid to bet too hard, but that's why I lost the hand I can now see. If I bet the pot, and got raised, I would know, and get out. As it is, I gave every reason to let them keep drawing by signaling a medium-strength hand. > > River (board: Kh 9c 8d Th 7s): > revlovejoy bets $1.75. Grenin goes all-in for $.05. > o-hole-ne raises to $17.80. revlovejoy folds. > o-hole-ne is returned $16.05 (uncalled). That was a really stupid bet amount on his part I thought so too. But it worked to get me out. But again, I failed to signal any strength. > Result: both other players had same J high straight. did they have it on the turn, or was it the river (i assume the river) You're assuming right. I had it on turn, they had it on river. > > So, I somewhat regretted folding, Why? Well, I did say "somewhat";-) - and that would be because I had the same hand. But as I said in my first post, I really looked at it and realized it was the right move. > EXHIBIT A - Did I assess this right? The fold at the end? most definately. That was the big question, so thanks for the reassurance, but mostly thanks for raising those other issues I hadn't considered. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > revlovejoy: Tc Qs Jc Jd > > Again, not the best Omaha8 offering, would be great for Omaha high. But like I > said, lots of limping in here for a quarter. again, when you need the weapon of a bigger pot to raise on top of later, why are you limping with 1-way hands in Omaha/8? Are the players THAT weak? I would have to say yes. There's a lot of limping, so my play at this table was to get in dirt cheap and if I didn't love the flop get out. Probably not the best strategy, but with PL, my limited experience has been that a passive table where you can limp in pays off - you spend a lot of small bets to see flops, but when you catch the flops, you get paid off much more. Maybe I'm getting a skewed perception with my limited hours at it. > > 2 callers ahead of me, I call, button calls, blinds call and check. > 7handed flop. > > Flop (board: Js 4s 8d): > Once again I flop top trips. I know this almost always has to improve in PLO8, > but I play it strong to isolate. his would have been more effective with a bigger pot preflop. look at all of the callers that you had that you didn't want to see, with the 2-low and flush out there. Now I definitely see your point about pre-flop raising. I guess my theory as stated above is too dependent on being greedy trying to build big pots, instead of grabbing a lot of smaller ones safely. Hmmm.. maybe this was another factor in my huge swings? > next guy goes all in with $5.15. next 2 fold. Next 3 call - CALL mind you. Wow > - 4 callers of a $7 bet. What do they have? > > Turn (board: Js 4s 8d Ks): > > CRAP - someone made the flush. I can still make boat or quads. > > all 4 of us check > River (board: Js 4s 8d Ks 7c): > > 2 check- badmoodbill goes all in for $17.40. > > Whoah- big bet.What's going on. He bet it big on flop, but was not interested in the flush. OR he has A2s, locking up one half and can catch nut low to quarter the bottom half (and get someone to raise for him) so he slow plays, or missed a check-raise chance... and now goes all-in on the river. I didn't consider that, but should have. There is a straight possibility. > > I figure, he's betting the low. Checked the river since there was still a draw > for low. So, I call. THAT was a pretty brave call in PL, with 3 callers to go. What if someone reraised- what would you do? Again, were they THAT weak that you thought this was a good plan? By braveyou mean dumb right? :-) - Seriously, tell me if it was. As to whether they were THAT weak, at this point I thought yes - and it turned out they were. The only strong better in both hands was the same guy just to my left. Across the table they were just calling. This was the usual pattern. I cleaned > up. My high of JJJ held up and I took down half of a $104.50 pot. I've just > about doubled up on the hand. The nut low of A2 was of course quartered by 2 of > the remaining players. The aggressor showed two pair for a high as well, no good > of course. > > So my hunch that they were all betting the low was right, and I did well. The > other two who won may have lost some ground, but with two others in the pot I > think they weren't hurt too bad. 2 guys with absolutely nothing lost big. > > This is why I almost never draw to nut low only. I'll get quartered usually, > win half of a small pot pre-slpit at best, and miss completely at worst. But as > long as everyone else draws to it, I make money if I have the high by myself. Only problem is that a strong low can push hands a lot harder than a flopped high, with all of the redraw possibilites, so you can often get caught for a maximum loss, it would seem, if you're playing one-way high hands. I'd stick with more two-way hands here, myself. Another good point. Another pot I took down was where I only had the nut low, but I bet it hard on a pot sized bet, and the others must have been so unsure of their highs that they folded. I had crap for high, so that's what I wanted. I think I discovered that phenomenon you just described. > So - EXHIBIT B - what say you, the jury? Was I right in calling or not? Not an experienced PL player, but I question the call unless you had good reads and assumed passivity from the three players behind you (I can't believe the other A2 didn't reraise, unless he feared A2suited, or was in front of the other two callers. I did think they were passive, but another reason that the other A2 may not have raised is that I was betting hard on the flop without the low, then the other aggressor bet hard when the low qualified - passive or not, he probably noticed two bettors focusing on different ends, and may have realized he was likely quartered. I've stopped raising when I get that feeling with A2 and I've kept from losing more that way. And to answer the question, I likely would have called another raise from that side of the table because by then I figured them as waiting on the low too. That's the only reason I called that big old bet in the first place. I was absolutely convinced I was the only high hand. *Anyone else? I'd love to hear other interpretations too - but E, thanks for your time on my long-ass post already
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Re: Let's talk PLO8 - Good moves or not, kennycatkiller, 14. Nov 2003 23:09
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I would not have played either hand! The only pair worth playing is the Ace. Reasoning is that you have only high possibilities, and, most of the time there will be a low possible. But, once you got involved, with the first hand, you made a good lay down, I think. With the second hand, you were lucky, but probably had a legit call for the size of the pot. One thing you need to be aware of is those low stacks which can call all-in, hoping to get lucky. Their presence eliminates any possibility of steam-rollering the table. Kennycatkiller
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