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Server Time: 8/30/2008 2:47:11 AM PACIFIC |
 Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, Jordan, 13. Nov 2003 08:35 | ||
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| I've recently transitioned from Limit to NoLimit and I really enjoy joining the big, big tourneys with the potential to win a large sum of money on one night if things go my way. The problem is I'm not used to NL. I always make one big mistake and I'm out. I get top pair, top kicker in NL and I think I'm golden whether it's AK, KQ, AQ, AJ, or whatever. Can some people give me some advice on how to survive early on and build up their stacks? I always seem to make one key mistake early on in a tourney and commmit all my chips thinking I have the best of it only to find myself either outdrawn or beat. First example I have AK in the small blind. Blinds are still fairly small (10-15) I think it's raised to maybe 100? It's called 2 times and I call from the small blind. The flop comes A, J, rag. I bet out around 350-375 into a pot that has about 500 chips in. I get a first called and then get raised all-in by the next player. I think and think and think and call thinking i'm facing AQ or AJ. (yes I know that's a dumb conclusion based on the fact there are 2 other people in a raised pot). Anyways I was up against a set of Jacks and I went out of that tourney. My second recent example was when I was in late position and I called with a pair of 3's. The flop came 3-5-7 of clubs. At this point I feel very confident that none of my three opponents have flopped a flush but have very strong draws to the nut or 2nd nut flush. The pot has about 400 chips or so and the first guy bets 100, it's called, and I raise to 700 chips with the best hand. I'm fairly certain I'm not facing a set of 5's or 7's. Of course I get called twice. I bet the rest of my chips on the turn (about 325 or so) and I get called by the person holding the A of clubs. A club comes on the end and I'm done with. Would you guys have avoided this situation altogether (as it's too risky) or gone all-in on the flop? My third and final example had me with AJ in late position and 3 other players. Flop comes J-8-6. (I think it was a rainbow flop.) First guy bets, next guy calls, one has folded, and I call as well. ( Should I have raised here?) The turn comes another 6. It's checked and then the guy right in front of me goes all in for 650 chips. I think and think and think and I called and sure enough he had played 2-6 and had trips. What am I missing? Are these just bad decisions, bad luck, or is there more I'm missing to big multi-table NL tourneys. Any advice would be appreciated. | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, SmellsLikeVictory, 13. Nov 2003 09:18 | ||
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| AK - Preflop, you could have put in a big reraise, though I don't think JJ lays down. After the flop, it is tough to lay that one down. However, I try to avoid risking all my chips this early and if someone goes all-in after I've shown lots of strength, but all I have is top pair, I will frequently lay it down. Especially early. Obviously this is player dependent, you'll call maniacs. Getting good at NL means you have to know when to make a big laydown. That sometimes means you laydown when you have the best hand, it's unavoidable. The fact that there's a third player involved makes a laydown more palatable. Nevertheless, it's tough to laydown AK when you pair and can' t fault you too much for calling in an online tourney. 33 - You played this one fine, though if you're going to raise 700 and leave yourself with just 300, just go all-in to begin with. Get your chips in when you have a hand and they're drawing. You're read was right, but there's nothing you can do when they draw out after calling your bets. You made him pay to draw (plus you had a redraw) and he just got there. AJ - Did you call a raise with this, or limp after limpers? If one of the limpers was Mr 62 and you've seen him playing garbage before, I would raise. I might limp, too, after limpers, but often I would fold after a tough player limped and certainly would not call a raise in this situation with AJ, a notorious trap hand. After you flop top pair, you MUST raise when bet into. You let him draw out on you cheaply. If he called your raise with that garbage, well, you'll usually get his chips. But most sane players will toss their hand right there. | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, Jordan, 13. Nov 2003 09:38 | ||
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| Thanks for the responses. I've really learned not to overplay AK and that's why I didn't reraise. While it's the best hand over any other non-pair it's even a dog to a pair of deuces and all it takes is running into a maniac who will coin flip with you or a slowplayed KK or AA and then you're really screwed. I really almost laid down my AK since I had shown strength and bet a big amount into the pot as I figured maybe AJ, or worse JJ. If the person right after me had folded (he had a very weak draw) and the other player went all-in I think it have been even more likely I would have thought I had the best hand. I should have folded after 1 call and an all-in raise since I didn't know much about the player. I think you're right in saying I should have gone all-in with my trip 3's on the flop. Might not have changed the outcome but I think it'd prolly be a better play. Would you suggest avoiding this and hoping for a more sure double hand though to build your stack? On the AJ, I limped after limpers. I know that AJ is a a big trap hand but I figured I had the best hand going in since I was in late position and there was no raising before me (unless of course) I was getting trapped. I get very nervous in raising with any pair under pocket 10's and I don't like raising with even AQ. I will raise with AK to drive people out but if I'm re-raised by a very solid player I might lay it down. I think all this tightening up comes from reading McEvoy's and Cloutier's NL book. Any other advice anybody? Thanks! | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, KJo, 13. Nov 2003 14:00 | ||
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| I think you're missing the point of why you need to raise with your AK, AQ, AJ, medium pairs, etc. You have to narrow the field or not see a flop at all to be successful with these, so limping is a very bad idea. All of these hands play decently heads up but poorly to a field, and if you put in strong raises most, if not all, of the limpers will lay down pre-flop. Eli on 13. Nov 2003 09:38 Jordan wrote: > Thanks for the responses. I've really learned not to overplay AK and that's why I didn't > reraise. While it's the best hand over any other non-pair it's even a dog to a pair of > deuces and all it takes is running into a maniac who will coin flip with you or a > slowplayed KK or AA and then you're really screwed. I really almost laid down my AK since > I had shown strength and bet a big amount into the pot as I figured maybe AJ, or worse JJ. > If the person right after me had folded (he had a very weak draw) and the other player > went all-in I think it have been even more likely I would have thought I had the best > hand. I should have folded after 1 call and an all-in raise since I didn't know much > about the player. > > I think you're right in saying I should have gone all-in with my trip 3's on the flop. > Might not have changed the outcome but I think it'd prolly be a better play. Would you > suggest avoiding this and hoping for a more sure double hand though to build your stack? > > On the AJ, I limped after limpers. I know that AJ is a a big trap hand but I figured I > had the best hand going in since I was in late position and there was no raising before me > (unless of course) I was getting trapped. I get very nervous in raising with any pair > under pocket 10's and I don't like raising with even AQ. I will raise with AK to drive > people out but if I'm re-raised by a very solid player I might lay it down. I think all > this tightening up comes from reading McEvoy's and Cloutier's NL book. Any other advice > anybody? Thanks! | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 10:04 | ||
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| I'll start with the second hand... it happens. No matter what comes up on the turn, if someone bets into you, you're going to put your last 300 chips in, so going all in on the flop was better than leaving yourself with 300. If you knew someone would gamble with a big club, the alternative would be to flat call the flop and move in on the turn if a 4 flush didn't hit. If it did, then maybe you can avoid losing your whole stack. For the first hand, you have to fold in a situation like that. You're facing 2 broadway cards against a preflop raiser who, in response to your big bet, goes all in. There's also a caller in between (who called a big bet with the preflop raiser still left to act). The preflop raiser is not messing around, and the caller has something. The best you can hope for is a chop with another AK. I highly doubt he'd make a move like that with AQ, but maybe. Top pair is rarely good enough for all your chips early in the tournament, and there are times to muck top 2 pair. Lots of people play pocket pairs just hoping they can break someone. Always be wary of the possibility of a set. Don't play scared of them, but if some guy is really saying he has one, don't think he just couldn't. If he bluffs you off a mediocre pot, it's better than losing all your chips. You will never be a winner at no limit if you can't fold a winner. On the third hand, you didn't mention what the blinds were and what the stack sizes were (I kind of assumed they were about 1000 in the first hand), but it sounds like it's early to midway through the tournament. If so, you have chips to play, so play. Raise when you hit the flop you were looking for. If someone plays back at you for a lot, you can get away from your hand having only lost the minimum. If their hand is weaker, they'd be ill advised to call, and you can take the pot right there. People will call small bets on the flop just hoping to catch their card and break someone, even with current pot odds not even close. I know I've done it quite a few times. Don't give them the chance to catch cheap. In my experience, successful no limit play is built on respect. You have to know when to respect your opponent's bet or raise and lay it down, and you have to know when to move in after he bets. When someone raises in front of you preflop, you should be looking for an excuse to fold. You also want people to respect your play. This is sometimes easier to achieve, but sometimes not. Being the aggressor is a cornerstone of winning no limit play, and having respect for someone who is willing to play back at you after you've been the aggressor is mandatory. If they get too out of line and you think they are putting a play on you, then if you can find out for less than all your chips, do so. If it'll cost you all your chips to be the sheriff, just let them get away with it this time. They might just have that hand, but you can punish them next time. Respect for the aggressor is also mandatory. I can't tell you how many times I called a preflop raise with a hand like AJ or AT early in my no limit days, flopped top pair with the J or T, only to be shown an overpair and lose all my chips. Or, the number of times I've been drawing to 3 outs (less than if I had middle or bottom pair) because I had top pair with a lesser kicker. No limit is really a tough beast to handle. It's a lot more dependent on who you're playing against that limit poker, and that's what makes it so tough to play well. Keep a log of what hands you busted out on (like you're doing so far) and go back every now and then and look at them. Once the pattern goes from "I should not have played this hand, called that raise, moved in like that, etc" to generally "I got my money in as a 3 to 1 favorite and it didn't work out" you'll know that you're becoming a good no limit player. You will still make mistakes, everyone does, but they will be less severe and less often. I've finished this post about 15 times now but I keep thinking of one more thing I should go back and put in. So, that's it, one last piece of advice, which is probably the most important piece I can give. Bad beats hurt a lot more in no limit cause it can cost you your whole stack. Don't let it get to you. Shrug it off, and buy in again or enter another tournament. It's even more difficult to maintain your composure and discipline after a big loss in no limit pot. But, these are the players that pay you off in the long run. Lee | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, shorn, 13. Nov 2003 10:14 | ||
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| You are calling waaaaaaaay too much with hands that don't warrant it. The key to NL tourny's is surviving and hopefully being able to get your chips all-in when you know (or are at least reasonably certain) that you have the best of it. Basically, you want to be the raiser not the caller and if someone shows more aggression behind you after you have raised, fold. Fold, fold, fold. Two of the three examples that you described were one's in which you called all in. This is a HUGE no no, unless you were trying to trap. I can't say it enough. Fold, fold, fold. Winning NL tourny's is not about winning a ton of pots. It is about winning 3 or 4 big showdowns when you have put your $$ to work with much the best of it (and it is also about blind stealing whenever possible). | ||
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| Re: Question for NL Online Multi-Table Tourney Players, Jordan, 13. Nov 2003 11:22 | ||
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| Thank you very much guys for your advice. It's been rather difficult getting out of the mentality of looking at any two big cards from any position and thinking I can prolly win with these two cards if I call a cheap flop bet and hit my kickers, or draw to my straight or flushes. I think that is my biggest problem. I'm a very tight player overall but I've had to adapt to low limit hold'em and that's what's killing me in NL. I need to patch up my calls when somebody puts a big raise into me after I've shown strength and I have top pair, top kicker. I guess it's better to still be in the tournament than always trying to find out if somebody is bluffing me. In late position with no raisers do you guys tend to raise with hands like KQs or AQo or AQs? Another thing I find difficult is getting away from mid pairs (8's) and up to jacks if it's been raised in front of me by a questionable (not super tight who only raises with say AK, AA, KK, or QQ) player whether it's in EP or MP. Do you guys call a raise of say 5-8x the bb early in a tournament to hit a set? What if you don't hit a set and if your pair is an overpair and you aren't sure if they are betting their AK (or a higher pocket pair) at a rag board when you have say a pair of 10's? I'm fine laying down these pairs if i've raised and then gotten re-raised. It's just harder for me to tell when it's been raised in front of me. Thanks again. | ||
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