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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:50:30 PM PACIFIC |
 Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Boftx, 13. Nov 2003 01:29 | ||
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| Typical Party NL table, everyone limps, then waits to see what comes later. I have been playing tight, folding almost every hand except the BB. I limped in with this suited hand because it was cheap to do so and I didn't want to be seen as a complete rock. I have added my thoughts during the hand after my actions in the history. ***** Hand History for Game 240534673 ***** 0/0 TEXASHTGAMETABLE (NL) - THU NOV 13 04:02:08 EST 2003 Table Card Room Table 1363 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button Seat10 posts small blind (0.25) Seat1 posts big blind (0.50) Seat6 posts big blind (0.50) ** Dealing down cards ** Dealt to boftx [ 9c, 5c ] call, call, call, check (late blind), fold boftx calls (0.50) call Seat10 raises (2.75) to 3 fold, fold, fold, call boftx calls (2.50) I call here because Seat10 had a history of loose, weak raises call ** Dealing Flop ** : [ Kh, Ac, 3c ] Seat10 bets (4) fold boftx calls (4) quite simply I like the flop for the draw, and I don't think Seat10 has AK or AA, probably medium pair or Ax. fold ** Dealing Turn ** : [ Kd ] Seat10 bets (5) boftx calls (5) Same reasoning as above plus the pot and his stack look good to me. Also, I really don't think a raise could push him off. ** Dealing River ** : [ 8c ] Seat10 checks. boftx bets (15) Time to get the payoff Seat10 calls (all-in) ** Summary ** Main Pot: $54.15 | Side Pot 1: $2.50 | Rake: $2.85 Board: [ Kh Ac 3c Kd 8c ] boftx balance $74.75, bet $27, collected $56.65, net +$29.65 [ 9c 5c ] [ a flush, ace high -- Ac,9c,8c,5c,3c ] Seat10 balance $0, lost $24.50 [ 3d Ad ] [ two pairs, aces and kings -- Ad,Ac,Kh,Kd,8c ] After the hand the losing player bitched about how "freakin lucky" I was. I think I made a reasoned call on the turn considering the size of the pot and his stack (he had about $12 left at that point). Was I correct in thinking I had decent odds all along the way to stay in this hand? Jim | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, AS, 13. Nov 2003 02:35 | ||
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| I'd say you definitly had pot odds for drawing on the flop and turn (not to mention good implied odds). However, you shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place. Changing up your play is a good thing, but there are better hands to do it with. If you've been playing real tight try raiseing before the flop with middle suited connectors or smaller pockets, hands that are normally good for limping. Neither of these types are typical rasinging hands, but they are decent and you have a good shot at the pot even if you have to play it out. I would highly reccomend reading Super System by Doyle Brunson if you haven't already. He asolutely loves suited connectors and often will ram and jam with them. A lot of players underrate these hands and so to a lot of people it will look like you are playing really wild when you are actually just slightly overplaying your hand. Aaron | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, FlopDaNutz, 13. Nov 2003 07:10 | ||
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| Am i missing something? He did not have suited connectors... he had 9c 5c. He should not have called 2.50 bet. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Boftx, 13. Nov 2003 09:34 | ||
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| You are probably very correct that I should not have called the raise. This was a case where I thought a flush would be good against anything he was most likey raising with if it hit. Also, I had about $45 in my stack as opposed to $25 in his. But all told, I was taking a shot.with a hand that normally would hit the muck. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, shorn, 13. Nov 2003 06:48 | ||
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| Be careful drawing to a flush in NL in an unraised pot when a pair comes on the board. It can cost you a ton of chips. Here is an example from a game I played the other day. $50 NL table on Party. I have A5h in middle position. 3 limpers to me, I limp, fold to the button who limps, SB completes and we take the flop 7 handed. Flop comes J83 with two hearts. SB bets out the pot, all fold to me, I call, button folds, we are heads up. Turn is another Jack. SB bets out 1/3 of the pot (which should have clued me in that he was intentionally giving me 4-1 to call); I call. River is 5h; sb checks, I bet the pot (most of my stakc, he raises me all in, I call, he turns over 33 for the boat. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 07:06 | ||
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| The other thing about the weak turn bet on shorn's hand is that if you had a jack, you're liable to sense weakness and play back at him and he can get the rest of the money in before you have a good chance to fill (it's pretty unlikely that you're full already, from his perspective). Just something that popped into my head and thought I'd share. As far as Botfx's hand... I don't like the preflop call at all. If the money was a lot deeper, then maybe you could play if you thought you'd be paid well for hitting (ie break someone), but you're putting in over 10% of the buy in stack (which I'll assume is average) to flop a longshot. The implied odds aren't there even if you do hit, which is what makes the call particularly bad. After the flop, the play is fine. You're lucky he didn't bet more on the turn though, else you'd have been wise to get out of the way with the paired board. Lee | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Boftx, 13. Nov 2003 09:46 | ||
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| I had about $45 at the time I called the pre-flop raise. As I stated in a different reply, I would usually just toss this hand against a raise anyway. I didn't because almost all the early limpers folded and I didn't think the raiser was likey to have a strong hand. And again, I felt the flop was cheap to look at given the above at $2.25 more. Needless to say, I am not well versed in how implied odds are used in NL and need to study up. This is why I posted, to find out if I had any understanding of how implied odds work in NL when calling a raise. It would appear I have a *lot* to learn :-) | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 10:25 | ||
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| Well it works like this... the most either of you could put in was $25, since that was how much he had in front of him. If you figure you can get his whole stack if you flop really well, then you'd win $25. But you're investing $3 to get it, so you're looking at about 9 to 1 (estimating what was in the pot from the limpers who folded) implied odds IF you flop really well and IF you convince him that his hand is worth his whole stack. The odds of a 95s flopping really well pretty much consists of two pair (48.5 to 1), trips (73.2 to 1, and also much more easily noticable by your opponent), a straight (310 to 1 in this case, since you can only make one) or a flush (119 to 1, and also noticable). You're only about 8.1 to 1 to flop a flush draw, and those are almost your implied odds IF you win his whole stack. Now, say this guy has $250 in front of him instead (you did too), and if you flop well, you can get a lot of chips. Then a call is a lot more reasonable, although 95s is pretty weak, so it's still a little dicey. It's tough to get a guy to put in all his chips when he's got that many. If your opponent just won't release a hand no matter what, then heck, playing any two would be profitable, but I'm sure I don't have to tell you it'd be extremely high variance. Calls like this are probably best left until you have a really good handle on the math and odds involved in no limit. Even if the money is deep, these calls are correct a lot less often than it might appear on the surface. Just because your implied odds are the other guys whole stack doesn't mean you're going to get it. Once you do get a handle on it, you'll be able to judge when you can play a situation like this for a small profit, and when you can pass and wait for another chance, most of the time opting to pass. Hope this helps. Good luck in future games Boftx! Lee | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Boftx, 13. Nov 2003 10:44 | ||
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| That does help a lot! Thanks! In the actual case I was really interested in the flush draw coming on the flop, as it is far less likely to get a straight flopped and I have no love for gutshot draws. I had planned on bailing if I didn't get the 4-flush draw or a made hand. I was just reviewing my thinking pre-flop. I looked at my stack being $45 against his $25 and calling the raise was only 5% of my stack. The raise to $2.50 looked suspicious to me and was the deciding reason I felt he was on a weak hand. From what you're saying, the size of my stack vs the call amount shouldn't have mattered, it was really the size of HIS stack that counted. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 10:49 | ||
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| Right, it's only the smaller of the two that counts. If you had a million bucks in front of you, 3 bucks is chump change, but you can still only get him to put in 25 more. Lee | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, skadet, 14. Nov 2003 10:35 | ||
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| The only thing I have to add to what others have been saying is this: at the turn, you were still a pretty big underdog. like, 18:1. The only thing that freaks me out with boards like that is that someone has a bigger flush...all he had to do was beat your 85 or whatever it was. | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Schuster, 14. Nov 2003 10:48 | ||
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| I think your math is a little off. He's only 4.5 to 1 to make the flush, and while that won't win all the time, it will win more often than 1 in 19. Lee | ||
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| Re: Did I play this anywhere close to right?, Boftx, 14. Nov 2003 11:42 | ||
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| Thats what I was thinking, I'm about 4.5:1 on the flop, and those odds hold true still at the turn as that is just one of the 2 cards to come counted at the flop. | ||
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