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Server Time: 2/13/2012 4:56:11 PM PACIFIC |
 AJo UTG, Barry T, 12. Nov 2003 23:58 | ||
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| Hi. I had an interesting conversation about AJo UTG. Here is the question: Do you play this hand in a 9- or ten handed game (always, sometimes, never)? If you play do you raise (always, sometimes, never)? If you are saying sometimes, how would you define those times? BarryT | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 00:08 | ||
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| I generally limp with this hand, but if my opponents are on the aggressive side, I will throw it away. I don't like to raise because I find it a lot easier to play on the flop if someone else has done the raising with this hand. If I raise and get called, it's very difficult to tell where I stand, and it's very easy to get trapped up by a higher kicker when the ace falls. If I limp and someone raises, I have a lot more information about their hand and can play the flop accordingly. If no one raises, generally I won't be outkicked if I hit my ace, so I can play it strongly. If the game were especially tight or one that respected early raises a lot, I'd raise it, but barring those circumstances, it doesn't happen. Lee | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, shorn, 13. Nov 2003 06:36 | ||
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| Lee- As usual, I like your analysis here of limping and "knowing where you are" on the flop. I will need to put that in my arsenal. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Snorbolus, 13. Nov 2003 06:33 | ||
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| I don't really like to get this hand UTG. My feeling is that playing here is pretty much a break even proposition for me, at most of the tables where I play. This hand from early position frequently gives me the opportunity to make big mistakes on later rounds. If I decide to play it (and more often than not I do), I like to raise. I feel that most of the hands that dominate me will re-raise anyway and those players who won't re-raise AKo might not raise with it even if I limp (this is how I believe the players who I often play against play). The main reason that I am inclined to raise is because UTG raises usually knock out at least a few limping hands that might have called otherwise. The fewer opponents the better with this hand. From middle position I would be much more inclined to limp, especially if there were callers infront of me. A second reason that I favor raising (if I am going to play), is to encourage others to play their AK and AQ against me in future when I raise pocket aces UTG. In summery I suspect that not playing AJ UTG would usually be the best option for me but that if I do play raising is the way to go. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, shorn, 13. Nov 2003 06:34 | ||
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| I never say never. I will say that rarely will I play this hand UTG. There are just toomany ways for it to come up second best and it really isn't all that strong without any information. However, if I am going to play it, I will ususally raise to try and limit the field. I would potentially do this in a very tight passive game as sometimes an UTG raise can steal the blinds. | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Roy Cooke, 13. Nov 2003 08:15 | ||
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| Hi all I seldom play this hand under the gun......If i do play the hand it is becuse they are loose passive players behind me that play any ace.....If there is much chance of a threat from good aggressive players (Generally the case in the limit games I play in) this hand is going into the muck. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 12. Nov 2003 23:58 Barry T wrote: > Hi. I had an interesting conversation about AJo UTG. Here is the question: > > Do you play this hand in a 9- or ten handed game (always, sometimes, never)? > > If you play do you raise (always, sometimes, never)? > > If you are saying sometimes, how would you define those times? > > BarryT | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, noiseboy, 13. Nov 2003 08:48 | ||
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| I only play it up front in passive games. | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Mark Barnett II, 13. Nov 2003 11:18 | ||
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| this hand and others bring up an interesting point, just where is the break off on hands where the chances of you winning the pot *in all its various forms* go below the break even point cause of the number of hands that dominate you. looking at it from a math stand point all pairs and AK, AQ have your hand beat and the odds someone has AK or AQ are smaller than normal cause you have an ace in your hand but of course you wouldnt play A2 from UTG in most cases *i assume* but where is the cutoff and why? one very simple basic formula i came up with *and of course circumstances...* if you flop top pair with either of your cards are you willing to be first to bet? if the answer is yes hand could probably be raised preflop if no then there needs to be a serious reason to even play the hand at all *straights/flushes/table very passive/weak* also remember there is probably night and day differences between the games most of the posters play versus the middle/high limit games and a loose/passive 30/60 game probably bears no resemblance to a loose /passive 1/2 game. personal preference, ill raise in most cases simply believing the odds are in my favor of having the best hand if an A or J flops *of course if rock charlie and never enters a pot without AA sam both reraise me ill toss the hand away and chalk it up to bad timing* AJ is a powerful enough hand that if im playing at a table where i dont feel comfortable raising with it i think its time for a new table Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Schuster, 13. Nov 2003 11:36 | ||
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| It's not about winning the pot as often as possible, it's about making each play as profitable in the long run as it can be. It's possible that making a play that would be -EV in isolation can improve your long EV. Sredni wrote a great post about it a while ago. It's tough to wrap your head around it sometimes, but it goes beyond the simple math of what has what odds of beating what. The link is: http://www.unitedpokerforum.com/forum/b.asp?m=31952 Other than that, it sounds as if by your reasoning, that every offsuit hand you enter the pot with is worth a raise. You can't just play the math though. Say you raise with your AJo, and get called by a good player. Odds are pretty good that he doesn't have AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, but what is he calling with? Flop comes with an ace and two rags. What do you do if he raises your bet? What do you do on the turn if he just calls? You have no information about his hand, except that if he plays, it's probably better than yours. Whereas if you limp, you will know more about the caliber of his hand based on whether he raises or just limps. I realize I'm paraphrasing what I said up above, but I've been thinking a lot about it, and I still think that a limp is right if the game is "good" (and of course that's what we're all looking for, right?) AJo will play very well for a limp against loose passive players, but they would have to be very loose to call a raise with a hand that you are beating.. In a tougher game, it goes in the muck. If tight, raise. I really like Roy's response. Sklansky cites his reasons to raise in TTOP. I know I am going to go back and reread that section right about now. Lee | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, mroban, 13. Nov 2003 11:58 | ||
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| Lee: In the low limit on line ring games I typically play, I have found your approach to work the best for me. On a typical table most players will raise with AT or above and not with A9 or below. If you limp and get a raise, you can put the raiser on either a big pair or AT-AK. If they limp you probably have the best pair going in (unless they have a small to medium pair and just limp with it). I find its very easy to get away from the hand on the flop if you limp with this weak hand and don't hit the flop. But usually if you limp and dont get a raise, if you hit the ace you can safely figure to have the best hand at that point (barring an Ax player hitting 2 pair or a small pair player hitting his set). But another bet on the flop will give you the answer you need. | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Bungus, 13. Nov 2003 18:04 | ||
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| A strong oponent will most often reraise with a high pocket pair. So if you hit an ace, theres like less than a 2 % chance some has ace higher kicker. Nothing worth not driving other hands out preflop for. | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Mark Barnett II, 13. Nov 2003 12:07 | ||
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| calling does nothing to drive out players when that needs to be your main concern with the hand and if your going to assume that by default his hand is better cause he is a good player than by default he reraises you for the same reason you raised drive out players which gives you info. i play in games all the time where raises barely register, they call up front raises with frequency with junk and if an A or J high flop comes im willing to be first to bet *not saying i always will bet but saying im willing to* i would much rather get the hand heads up or no more than 3 others if possible and i want to do what i can to achieve that. im open to someone saying the math says this hand will get dominated too often but where does it end? do you only play AA cause it cant get dominated? my post was trying to say somewhere *and i dont have the info* there is formula that has the info at some point the chances of your being dominated by players who call and who dont raise is greater than the chance of your winning the pot *god i dont think im saying this right hope to god you can figure it out* *one reason im sure why he posted the question in the first place* Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: AJo UTG, Mark Barnett II, 13. Nov 2003 12:16 | ||
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| calling to me seems to be the weakest choice, either dont play the hand at all and wait for position or try and drive others out of the pot, again remember i said upfront all of this assumes you know nothing about the table and they know nothing about you otherwise info you know about the table could make a large difference. AJ has serious weaknesses but against a few players can be good *and more than likely you will know very quickly whether bad or good* i like your thinking about calling but for me the AJ would have to be suited so i have some sort of hand chances in case we get a family like pot Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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