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Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:27:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), guinnessman, 11. Nov 2003 12:53 | ||
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| Let me give a little history of myself and explain the situation I am in now. I am soon to be 35 and I am recently married. My wife and I have both worked our way up to middle management and have a nice combined income ($110K) with no kids. The problem is that we are both tired of the commute and our jobs. We seem to work too much and have the money to travel where we want (normally cruises or tropical vacations), but no time to do it. I know this sounds like many other people out there, but I think I have found a way to get away from the cycle and would like input from anyone out there to either encourage it or shoot a hole through the idea before I find out the hard way. Of course, the idea involves Poker, specifically online poker. I have been playing 35 hours/ week after work and on weekends (may actually be 20 hours, since I play 2 tables sometimes). I also add about 4 or 5 hours of poker reading a week into my schedule. I play sit n gos, multi table, and ring games on UB and Party. My ring games are normally 2-4 or 3-6, sometimes dropping to 1-2 when running bad or 4-8 if I know a bad 3-6 player in the game. I have tracked over 1000 hours using stat king and have a pretty consistent $10-$11/hour win rate going. This does not come out to be much money (about $1400 a month) if you are talking about making a living until you hear the rest of my idea.... I want to move to Costa Rica and play poker for a living..... OK, you can stop laughing now as I present my case... We have $150K in equity in our house and could liquidate another $50K without touching IRA's and 401K's. A beachfront house in Costa Rica runs between $50K and $100K for an average 3 bedroom with an acre of land. A decent 4WD used vehicle would cost around $15K. Moving/ refurnishing would be around $15K. This leaves around $70K for a cushion. I believe I can make $1500/ month online playing poker full time. I would be giving up live play for a while since the only game I found there was in Casino Europa in San Jose. First San Jose is a hell hole of a city and I was uncomfortable walking the streets (we would move 2 hours away from San Jose) and secondly, the only game going on the night I was there was a $2-4 mixed game where they did 1 round Omaha 8 and one round Holdem. I figured with my lack of Omaha 8 experience any advantage in the Holdem would be lost. Anyway, I know $1500/month does not seem like much but the cost of living is so much lower there, it should be more than enough to live comfortably. If you own your own home there (no rent), the middle class families (with kids) that I have talked to live off $500- $700 a month income. Many of the local people we talked to make $1.50 an hour and have both parents working to support families. I have an American friend that has lived there for 3 years and now owns 2 internet cafes and a restaurant. After paying his employees and all the expenses, he clears about $2500 a month average and lives well enough that he can travel home to Boston every other month for a week as well as support his girlfriend and 2 kids. He rents a 4 bedroom house for $450 a month and still has enough to live very well. Here are some of the reasons that I have thought of for not going and what I found when I went there or researched: Health care- Costa Rica has no cost health care for citizens and health care for around $150/ month for a legal resident couple. The infant mortality rate is lower in Costa Rica than the US and many elective surgeries are done to US residents there because they are under 1/2 the price of the US. This is due to the lack of huge malpractice claims. Language- While I speak some Spanish, I found that there is not a need to since 85% of the locals speak English. Government- Costa Rica has had a stable democracy since the early 70's. Lots of red tape, but everything is relatively cheap. No winter- yeah right....I'll stick my head in the freezer if I want to see frost. Locals- The native Costa Ricans are very laid back and friendly. I loved talking with everyone I met, unlike Jamaica that everyone I met had something (usually illegal) to try to sell me. Americans- In the two weeks we were there we met over 20 Americans that have been living there for over 10 years. Most claim income to the US of less than the standard deduction and run cash businesses there (bars, fishing boats, etc.) TV- DirecTV is available but a Latin America version. The station split is about 50/50 Spanish/English. Family- Outside of a peak month or two for tourism, round trip airfare from the north east is about $350. Not bad for a vacation where someone could stay in Costa Rica for free. Income- What if my assumption that I could make $1500 a month is wrong? We can live off the $75K leftover from our house sale for many years or buy/ start a business. Future wealth- This is not going to happen unless I win a big one or what we buy increases in value enough to sell/ move. I don't think we would ever get to the point of being wealthy here either and at least I am in paradise there... Legality- While it is illegal to play at sites based in Costa Rica (paradise poker for one), it is not to play on UB and Party which are based on some Indian land in Canada. What my wife thinks- She is pushing to go even more than I am. Every time I get discouraged, she is the one that has found solutions and pushed us through it. Dogs- We have two wonderful 2 year old black labs that I am scared to death to put on a plane. It is legal to import them, but we have not decided how we are getting them there yet. Leaving them behind is not an option. Sorry for such a long post and exposing way too much of my personal life, but if we are going to do this our house is going on the market in January and there will be no turning back at that point. Go ahead and fire away and thanks for listening.... Guinnessman- AKA Bob K | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), Candide, 11. Nov 2003 13:26 | ||
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| I'm in a very similar situation, although a bit younger I believe as I don't have as much equity in my house. My current goal is to get debt free 100%, and then go from there. Options at that point include going to get a PhD and teach, which would leave my summers free for travel. My fiance is finishing up her grad school now, so once I hit the debt free goal, she would continue to work while I get my grad school finished up. As you have stated, when you own the house you are content to live in for a very long time, and have no kids, the world opens up to you. And should be something you should be proud of. Here are a few things to consider... Rent your existing house. This provides you with a constant, steady source of income. Even if it is reduced by having to pay an agency to maintain the house, it could be worth looking into. This may mean a bit longer stateside before you can move, but could have a huge benefit later on. I'm still wondering about the healthcare. Are there any additional costs, for like a surgery or something? While the gov't is stable, it wasn't too long ago (a decade or so) that my company had all of the americans we had in Costa Rica held for hostage/ransom. The company had to pay them off, and they were never caught to my knowledge (this happened all before my time here, but is talked about semi frequently, it was in the city however). What will your wife to? Some people are not content to sit around and do nothing, even in paradise. Does she play as well? What type of shopping is available to you in the safe areas you are looking at? I mean, just because some people live at x$ per month, what level of life are they living? Is it in a tin shack (as I was shocked to see so many living in during our trips to hawaii)? Is it with torn up furniture? Can you get a new table at a reasonable cost that is satisfactory to what you have come to expect with your current lifestyle? Dunno, just a few things that come to mind. PLEASE keep us updated to your thoughts, this is something I am very interested in hearing more about, as it isn't very different from our current plans (although we would support ourselves at one of the universities in the caribbean or bahamas) Jason | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), Denver, 11. Nov 2003 14:01 | ||
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| In essence, you are going to be an entrepreneur. Therefore, I suggest treating your move in business plan fashion. Move past rough estimates and try to get down to nitty gritty numbers that you can expect in month 3, 6, 12, 18, 60 etc. Being of middle manager stock, both you and your wife should also thing about doing some analysis on several options of income producing activities -- when and where you could get those going, how long and how much it would take to do so. Don't just have a rough plan A, a blurry plan B and the perceived safety net of coming back to the U.S. if things turn out badly. You NEED to have very clearly defined goals for your life down there. You've obviously done very well for yourself up to this point, but it's not time to sit back and coast because you can beat a 3/6 game on UB. Specifically regarding poker I think it would be in your better interests to committ yourself to studying, learning and becoming proficient at all the games offered online or elsewhere. This will give you the widest table selection, the best chance to find a good game and beat it, and will improve your overall game. I've never heard of a 3/6 'pro' and I think you'd want to avoid having to grind it out for 60 hours a week to pay your bills, which would mean getting up to 10/20. Cashing out and playing poker in paradise is a great dream and I applaud you for having the guts to go for it. I don't think I need to tell you not to go into this with your blinders on. Like John Wooden used to say, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail." Also, considered yourself lucky to have a woman who, not only didn't laugh at the notion, but actually is an inspiring force. For most of us married guys that's akin to flopping a 5 of a kind. If you're going to do it, do it right. Have a disaster recovery plan, have a secondary income plan, have a medical emergency fund, as Candide said do what you can to keep some U.S. real estate in your portfolio --- outs, outs, outs. Then go for it! | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), noiseboy, 11. Nov 2003 16:13 | ||
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| I would read Ciaffone and Brier's excellent book "Middle Limit Hold'em" about fifty times and then move up to 10/20. Once you get to where you feel confident you can continue your winning 1BB hour ways, then you'll make nearly twice as much and have a VERY comfortable lifestyle in Costa Rica. If it doesn't work out, you can always move back. Anyway, I'm working on the same thing, although I'm single and just plan on paying all my debt, beefing up my savings to about 6 mos living expenses (for the swings) and getting my living expenses down as much as possible. Then I'm turning pro, maybe a year or so down the road. There's very loose 15/30 and 20/40 games in the Bay Area, it's just free money waiting for me to take it, I'm just not there yet on bankroll and savings to survive the swings. Good luck, I think you should go for it! You only live once, and even if it doesn't work out, it will be one heck of an adventure! In the beginning, you might want to do a bit of bartending or something, just to take the pressure off your playing. You know, just so you don't panic if you have a downswing. | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), noiseboy, 11. Nov 2003 16:15 | ||
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| PS, just to be safe, I wouldn't mess with the 300BB standard, I would want more like 1500BBs, to get your "risk of ruin" down to almost nothing. | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), SpaceAce, 11. Nov 2003 17:23 | ||
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| Hi, guinnessman. Here's my take on your situation: If you're even thinking about leaving a combined income of $110,000/year behind to play poker for $1,500/month, you are not happy where you are. Life is just too damn short. Pack up and go. Have fun and good luck. Let us know how it works out. SpaceAce | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), Formless, 11. Nov 2003 21:40 | ||
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| I say do it, but rememeber paradise is in the heart, not a place you can buy a ticket to or put a downpayment on. | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), rdale, 11. Nov 2003 23:51 | ||
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| I've done the math on Costa Rica as well, and it sounds like a wonderful place to live... doing the math on other places, it is obviously just a nice place to visit, which is the final deciding factor when I move anywhere. Kudos to you, and best wishes, your puppies shouldn't be too much trouble to import even if expensive. We shipped pets to europe with out too much out side of expense of vaccination, there might be some kind of quarintine or something involved. When you start seriously looking for property the real estate agent may have the best advice and phone numbers for you to call. Good luck and I hope to see you in paradise. | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), RonnieB, 12. Nov 2003 07:05 | ||
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| Two questions: 1. How do you deal with inflation? In the case of earning $ 1500 per month and that being adequate today, how does a pro poker player deal with rising costs. For example, $1500 in 1992 would be more like $1182 in 2002. You lost $318 (21%) of earnings in ten years to inflation. To make up the difference, do you continue to move up in games? People with regular jobs either have to get cost of living adjustments or change jobs to increase income. How do poker pros deal with this? 2. Poker pros do get old and retirement questions would be on my mind. You either have to have enough to retire before you start playing, or save and invest as you play, or plan to hustle the old folks at the retirement home. (You could corner the jello market). I can see the very successful pros saving for retirement but on $1500 a month, how will you deal with old age? Hope you can make it happen. Ron | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), guinnessman, 14. Nov 2003 11:46 | ||
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| Thanks for all the replies. There were a few questions mixed in that I will try to answer first.... One suggestion was to rent our existing house. We have considered this idea, but we need the money to get a house in Costa Rica. We could refinance and get the money that way, but I am nervous about going that far in debt while not being in the country to handle anything that came up. It is a 3 family house that we currently rent our two of the units and if we refinance, we would rent out the third. We do have someone that would care for the house for a few $$ a month. The problem would be that the three rents would barely cover the payment and if we lose a tenant or even two for more than a month, we would have a hard time coming up with the money while in Costa Rica. This would open us up to the possibility of losing everything and ruin our credit. My wife does play some pretty solid poker but she does not enjoy long sessions. She likes playing 3 or 4 sit n go's a week, but she only does one at a sitting. We are planning on opening/ buying a business with some of the 75K we would have, but we are going to wait until we are settled in an area before we decide what to buy or start. We are thinking along the lines of coffee shop/ internet cafe, a small bar, or even a DVD rental place (DVD is just catching on there now and there is nowhere to rent them). It will depend on where we settle and what is needed. Moving up- I have played at the 10-20 level in the past in the B+M and did well, but I am uncomfortable with the swings. By the time we leave I may be back at that level. We have made the decision to not withdraw from the accounts for a few months to get the bankroll bigger. I have been only leaving 1K when I have been taking the withdrawals, and that is too little to handle the 10-20 swings, especially online. Inflation and retirement- Inflation is tricky since the currency exchange comes into play. I will be playing for US dollars which is very strong against the Costa Rican Cologne 409-1. This rate has gone up from about 300-1 in the past 3 years. This means the us$ is worth even more compared to their currency. This could change the wrong way as well. If you are talking world economy inflation, I would think that the game levels would change accordingly. The 2-4 players would move to 3-6, the 3-6 to 4-8, etc. I'm pretty sure 15 years ago the casinos offered lower limits than 3-6 or 2-4 and have moved up with the economy. Retirement- good question. We would be keeping IRA's here, but future contributions would be dependent upon income and what business we choose. It would also depend on the property we buy there increasing in value like I think it will. Lastly, where would I retire to? I would already have my own house in paradise...and the way my wife hides money away we should be all set. This does not mean that we are not going to plan for it or that we have not talked about it, we just want to adjust to the new reality first before putting more planning into retirement. Thanks again, Guinnessman | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), noiseboy, 14. Nov 2003 12:24 | ||
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| It's true that the swings can be pretty rough in the mid-limits. You could certainly live on 2-4 to 5-10 in Costa Rica, so moving up isn't really necessary. | ||
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| Re: Costa Rica or not...looking for advice (long), Malachii, 18. Nov 2003 16:01 | ||
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| Look Man - Life is short. Go for it! If it does not work out you can always come back and get that middle management job again. I would get more play in and make sure your record of $10 an hour will hold up or get better. You have supportive wife - luck you! My biggest concern is the dogs. They will have to be quarenteed (SP?). But you should go for it! Good luck. | ||
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