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Server Time: 2/13/2012 5:05:30 PM PACIFIC |
 2 types of pre-flop raise, Aisthesis, 11. Nov 2003 09:14 | ||
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| I'm sure this is old hat to many, but since it's a distinction I haven't yet run across, I was hoping to gather some opinions from the people here. It probably also applies more to NLHE, which is what I play. Basically, I've started making a clear distinction between what one might call exclusionary raises, on the one hand, and money raises, on the other. Pre-flop, an exclusionary raise is my strategy on pretty much any pair hand that I choose to raise: I want to either buy the pot right there or get it heads-up, where I feel like my pair will usually be worth betting. A money raise is usually best in LP, and the idea is just to get more money in the pot on hands that play well in multi-way pots. So, for example, with a fair number of limpers when I'm in LP, I'd be inclined to raise something like JTs by just 1 BB in the hope that everyone would call, so that I have a big pot to work with if my hand yields an attractive flop. Anyhow, I'm basically liking this strategy at the $25 NL tables I usually play (which are usually pretty passive and hence present quite a few opportunities to use the "money raise" strategy), but it raises one main question: Which hands are good for doing this on? 1) General: I'm figuring the best hands to make a money raise on are suited connectors. Correct? Maybe also some suited hands with A? 2) On the high side: One of my favorites for the money raise is actually AKs since I feel like it's pretty much nothing standing alone but excellent in the many cases when it hits--basically, A flop, K flop or flush draw flop. Is my idea sound here, or should I be trying to actually exclude more callers pre-flop on a hand that strong? How about something like AQs or AJs? On the other hand, with AQo, I'm assuming, if one wants to raise it at all, it's better to make an exclusionary raise to narrow down the number of players seeing the flop. 3) On the low side: In LP with a lot of limpers in, how low should one go and still consider raising at a "typical" table? (the more aggressive and tighter the table, the more picky one needs to be, I assume, but the ones I currently play are usually pretty loose and passive) Is 98s a fairly reasonable cutoff at such a table if almost everyone has called? Again, it's a really bad hand unless you hit something for the flush or the straight, but in that scenario the pot odds are already very attractive, and in LP you may have a good buy opportunity. I'd be most interested in hearing more opinions about this. | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, shorn, 11. Nov 2003 09:30 | ||
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| I am not sure about this money raise strategy. The concept of making a bigger pot if you hit is sound, but NL isn't a game where people draw a ton (or they shouldn't anyway) because it isn't like they have to call just "one more bet". So, in effect you are putting more money into the pot than necessary. Add to that the fact that you give the other limpers the opportunity to make a really big raise behind you (if someone limped with AA, AK or KK let's say) and then you have to lay it down. Also, you will generally always have high implied odds in NL because if you hit a big hand, you can bust someone, so your drawing decisions should be based on that criteria much more than in limit where current pot odds play a bigger factor. I am going to give your method a try and think about it some more. Perhaps the games are so passive that it outweighs the negatives. However, I consider the online NL games to be limping or excluding games where you want to see a lot of flops with marginal hands for as little as possible so that when you hit that 1 or 2 miracles a session your win per money invested is at its highest. Steve | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, Aisthesis, 11. Nov 2003 10:06 | ||
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| Yes, some very good points. On the AA and KK aspect, I don't run into many players who limp on those, and even if there are a few candidates at the table (indeed at an aggressive table that's almost invariably raised pre-flop I can see limping there with the intention of pulling something like a checkraise), the probability is still fairly low that someone has one of those. I do see an advantage of the money raise in LP as probably also giving you better drawing chances: If LP has already shown strength pre-flop, I think there will be more flops on which EP and MP players will be cautious about aggressive betting. All I can really say up to now is that I think it works quite well at passive tables. At aggressive tables, I'm thinking one should at least bump the criteria for minimum hand to raise with--maybe to JTs? At a really aggressive NL table the whole thing may just be out of the question, I don't know (at present I try to avoid such tables because I don't do well on them--but I'm working on it!) | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, Aisthesis, 11. Nov 2003 10:46 | ||
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| P.S.: While I'm very glad you're interested enough to try my "money raise" idea (which really does make sense to me), please do beware that it's at this point just an idea with very inconclusive practical results. I REALLY don't want any of my posts to end up costing people money... By the way, I just did a quick calculation of some relevant odds in the "odds" section. They're a shade rough (due to the complications required to get complete accuracy) but I think they're close enough for all practical purposes. | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, shorn, 12. Nov 2003 11:55 | ||
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| Don't sweat it...I won't hunt you down. :) | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, Aisthesis, 12. Nov 2003 15:53 | ||
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| lol... that's good! I'm still liking the idea and playing it (seems to be working pretty well up to now), but I did at least want to let you know that I'm still in the "experimental phase" with this. If you keep trying it, let me know how you feel about it after playing it a while. With Barry T's remarks, another place NOT to try it would presumably be with a maniac on the button or in the blinds. For me (and I may be way off in the way I play this hand), I'm a particular fan of it with AKs, as I just don't feel comfortable making an exclusionary raise with that hand and hence creating horrible pot odds facing a flop that will often render the hand completely worthless. But it's also a hand with which I would also feel perfectly comfortable calling down a maniac who re-raises astronomically after me (unless I can assume he has a pocket pair). | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, Aisthesis, 11. Nov 2003 21:39 | ||
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| Just renewing this post in the hope of getting some more feedback. I'm kind of assuming that for better players than myself this is either totally self-evident or rather unwise. If unwise, I'd be very interested in hearing why, since I'm currently playing my hands pretty much this way when the opportunity arises. (so please stop me before I lose any serious money with it if I'm wrong!!) | ||
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| Re: 2 types of pre-flop raise, Barry T, 12. Nov 2003 11:35 | ||
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| Hi. "Pot Sweetener" raises are more applicable to PL than NL. That way, you can make larger bets post flop withthe appropriate hands. IN NL, you always risk losing your raise to an "over the top" action from the blinds or an EP player. I see you use the term probability in yur post. Limit hold'em has a lot do with probability. While NL certainly has a lot to do with odds, probability is not paramount. After your entire stack gets wiped out in one hand, it does you no good to shake your head and mutter ,"How imporbable." BarryT | ||
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