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Server Time: 11/20/2008 11:50:23 AM PACIFIC |
 ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), Bungus, 11. Nov 2003 02:58 | ||
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| 8 person internet LLHE. I'm Button -2 with A8s. EP limps, I call, button raises, SB folds, BB calls, me and EP call. Flop- JAKoff (rainbow, that is) giving me a top pair-low kicker and a backdoor flush BB and EP check, I bet, Button calls, BB folds, EP calls. Turn-8 JAK8 two spades, no runner-runner flush for me, but 2 pair EP checks, I bet, Button calls, EP RAISES... I think for a moment and merely call. Now this is where I bring my play into interrogation. I'm not sure if I played that one a little to tight/scared. I had some bad beats a little earlier, and was afraid of EP might be slowplaying a set, straight or higher two pair. In retrospect, I believe raising would have been correct here, 1. Because AK, AJ, JJ, KK, or AA would have raised/reraised preflop. B. because it would avoid the possibility of being rivered by a straight by the button if a Q or T hit the board (from his raise preflop and his action thereafter, he must have held a Ten or Queen, for reasons to lengthy to go into here) Now if this raise came from the Button, who HAD raised pre-flop, I think a call would have been right. In defense of the play I made, though, I can think of one strong argument: the button would be more prone to call a single raise. If he folded, and EP calls, I'm not gaining any bets. Any thoughts? I'd be happy to relate how it ended, but since the results of one hand are inconsequential, I'd like to see how every one responds first. | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), grant pittman, 11. Nov 2003 04:31 | ||
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| Bungus....one of the missions of a forum like this one is to allow less knowledgeable players to improve their poker game. It only makes sense that ALL players, regardless of their knowledge of the game, be WELCOMED to read,think about, and respond to any post. You seem confident about your knowledge of the game.....if someone posts something that is trivial to you or otherwise not helpful....pass it by and say nothing please. This would seem to be the best road to follow if we want to preserve and build this forum. Thanks. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), hokie95, 11. Nov 2003 05:29 | ||
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| Well said Grant. I was formulating a really snappish reply when I read your post. Then this post had a snippy little ending sentence, which I deleted. *sigh* Things are more fun when you can just be a giant jerk in response. Anyhoo, here's one novice's read of that play, which you are free to ignore: It's very possible that someone flopped a straight with that board and was going to slow play it. I mean, in internet LLHE, a Q-10 holding is gold to some players from any position. They may have decided that they let enough people in cheap and now was looking to get an extra big bet with a check raise on the turn instead of waiting for the river. Of course, you have given us no read of the table texture other than a self-proclaimed ESP reading that the button had either a Q or a 10. (How, pray tell, do you know from his pre-flop play that he must have had either a Q or a 10? Inquiring novices want to know.) But, since you didn't tell us how it ended, I guess I'll have to sit here all atwitter with anticipation until you grace us with the epilogue. -Hokie95 | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), Schuster, 11. Nov 2003 10:39 | ||
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| I believe it was Angel who said not too long ago that even incorrect advice helped him to learn, because analyzing why it was incorrect often gave him a new insight. Forgive me if I'm attributing the wrong source, but the wisdom holds very true... Lee | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), hokie95, 11. Nov 2003 11:53 | ||
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| on 11. Nov 2003 10:39 Schuster wrote: > I believe it was Angel who said not too long ago that even incorrect advice helped him to > learn, because analyzing why it was incorrect often gave him a new insight. What are you trying to tell me? Hehehehehehehehe........ | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), Schuster, 11. Nov 2003 13:13 | ||
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| Haha! No, not trying to tell you anything, trying to tell Bungus something... ;) Lee | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), Candide, 11. Nov 2003 12:53 | ||
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| Heh, and to think he called ME pompous and uptight and then makes this post? Well, mr pompous tool has a huge grin (just as he did when reading your post) right now. | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), grant pittman, 11. Nov 2003 04:50 | ||
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| Bungus I would agree that you have the button player beat on the turn. He is likely to have 10,10 or QQ. How you proceed on this hand when you get check raised by the limper depends on what you know of his play. Is he the type of player that would limp with a big pair and wait this long to come to life? He was given an opportunity earlier in the hand to raise both preflop and on the flop. More importantly, is he the type of player that would wait til the turn with bottom 2 pair to raise or would he raise semibluff with a pair and a new found flush draw? If he is loose he would likely have limped with Q10. If you are confident he wouldn't limp with a big pair or big ace preflop you need only worry about him holding Q10 so go ahead and reraise. If he makes it 4 bets he has defined his hand as Q10 (or at least a hand that is beating yours) and you can call and hope for an ace or 8 on the river. If you miss, you should fold. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), kurosawa, 11. Nov 2003 05:37 | ||
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| Ah, I have analyzed this hand carefully and can tell you exactly what you did right & exactly what you did wrong..... oh, wait a minute, i'm not a board veteran....nevermind, i'll keep it to myself.... | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), shorn, 11. Nov 2003 07:56 | ||
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| Sorry...I never served in the military. | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), noiseboy, 11. Nov 2003 10:38 | ||
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| Isn't today VETERAN'S DAY?? LOL | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), shorn, 11. Nov 2003 12:22 | ||
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| Indeed it is...and I am sttill not a veteran so no comments from me. :) | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), AZJones, 11. Nov 2003 13:01 | ||
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| I enjoy a good steak, so I guess I shouldn't reply... Oh wait that says veteran not vegeterian. I'm not one of those either. People for the Eating of Tasty Animals AZJones | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), MozMan, 11. Nov 2003 20:56 | ||
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| The Good Lord gave us sharp teeth for the purpose of tearing flesh from the bodies of small or unintelligent animals. I used to work with a vegitarian, and she hated it when I said that! :) -Moz "One November spawned a monster in the shape of this child..." | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), LJH, 11. Nov 2003 13:22 | ||
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| BUNGUS, WHAT IS THE POINT OF ANYONE RESPONDING IF YOU ONLY WANT VETERAN ADVICE. ALSO HOW CAN WE ADVISE YOU WHEN WE DO NOT KNOW THE TYPE OF GAMS OR THE PLAYERS. IF YOU WANT AN ANSWER TELL US WHAT HAPPENED IN THE OUT COME AND THEN WE CAN TELL YOU HOW GOOD OR BAD YOU PLAYED. LJH | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post] (veterans only, please. Novices Need Not Reply), LKP, 11. Nov 2003 18:08 | ||
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| Just a novice myself (so go ahead and quit reading if you want), but I could see several possibilities. First off, I think it matters the limits at which you are playing. You said LL, but I think it matters if it's online .5/1 or online 3/6. I would doubt that the EP had a set. I would think it a bad play to slow play a set when the board has such obvious straight draw potential. I wouldn't want to give anyone a free card. However on the other hand, he could be a poor player that's scared to death of the straight and is trying to see if there's any huge action beforehand. He could be on a nut flush draw with a pair of A's. He could have a 9T, which would explain his check-raise after the 8 pops out. He could even have the 9Ts of the 4 flush out there. Anyway, rather than analyzing all the possible things he could have, look at it this way. Assuming that the river does not complete whatever draw he is looking for (if he's looking for one), the only hands that can beat you are 10 Q, a set, or a better two pair. As I stated earlier, I can't see him slow-playing a flopped set with that much straight draw potential out there, so I doubt he has JJ, KK, or AA. If he held AK, I would imagine he would bet out strong. If he held AJ, he might be fearful of the AK, but I imagine he would still bet out strong. Thus, the only hands I would think he might have that would beat you at the turn would be pocket 8s or a 10 Q. Everything else would be either an inferior hand, or strange playing on his part. I would go ahead and raise him, because in all likelihood (especially in the really low limit online games) he is overvaluing his draw. I would call if he reraised, and see what the river card came up as. If it was a Q or a 10, I would probably check then call, if it was the third spade, I would probably check then fold. That's just what I would do on low limit tables. I don't think that's the savvy play if you were on a higher limit, but those low limit players love to jam the pot on some weird hands, so I would be willing to pay to see that they really are holding the straight if a Q or 10 pops up. Of course, that's just what I would do if it were heads up against the EP. If the button stayed in on this, I might check and then fold if a Q or 10 popped up on the river. | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post], Bungus, 11. Nov 2003 20:28 | ||
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| God #%$& *@#&# it. Lighten up every one. I made the post after staying up all night, and intended it as admittedly crappy play on words. In retrospect it looks pretty lame, but not as lame as that time Hollywood tried to make a movie about Martin Lawrence traveling back in time. I suppose I'll just drop this thread now, as it seems to have generated a shitstorm, none of it pertaining to my question. With the exception of LKP, I don't think anyone made it past the title. You guys chastise me more than my mother when I'd make fun of the fat cop who always had trouble squeezing his way into the squad car with his bag of McDonald's. | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post], LKP, 12. Nov 2003 19:39 | ||
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| Hey, just curious: what did he have? | ||
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| Re: ANAYLIZE THIS [long post], Bungus, 13. Nov 2003 18:24 | ||
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| As you suggested, he was overvaluing his hand. The MP turn raiser held J8 (of diamonds, so not even a flush draw), for two lowest pair. As is common early in the morning, the 2-4 game tightens up with all the real weak players going to sleep. Though there were less then 50% players to the flop, I guess we still had some real green players among us for someone to be playing J8s from MP with no one in front calling. As for the Button, we can be pretty sure (baring the possibilty he was as bad as the MP player) from his preflop raise and flop and turn calling, he held something like TT, QQ, or KQ, maybe even QJ or AT. What else would justify a preflop raise? | ||
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