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Server Time: 11/23/2008 4:02:22 AM PACIFIC |
 Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, Lottery Larry, 8. Nov 2003 09:38 | ||
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| If you are running a home $5/10 forced rotation game, switching between holdem and stud, what is the best way to handle the stud portion? Should you continue with blinds and make 3rd street follow the normal holdem rotation of action? Or should I just make the low card a forced bring-in for $3? I wasn't planning on using an ante- should I make the forced bet higher? Thanks LL | ||
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| Re: Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, timmer, 8. Nov 2003 09:46 | ||
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| no! use an ante and a reasonable bring in. and allow the action to start with the low card on 3rd and the highest board hand on all other rounds. the other option is for the dealer to ante for all and to make that money dead but his playing action is live regardless of where he is in relation to the bring in. if you start messing with the structure and the flow of action in stud smart players can really rape the game bad. | ||
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| Re: Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, Lottery Larry, 8. Nov 2003 13:24 | ||
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| "if you start messing with the structure and the flow of action in stud smart players can really rape the game bad." I understand that it can be an advantage to high cards/good hands when catching a forced bet that they shouldn't have had, but what other dangers are there? i thought that a rotating blind might be more fair, so someone doesn't get stuck putting in a lot of forced bets on the stud rotation, just through dumb luck. how is the dealer anteing any different than the blinds, other than the blinds being live? thanks | ||
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| Re: Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, David Zanetti, 8. Nov 2003 17:56 | ||
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| May I suggest that you try out big river/mississippi seven-street stud as an alternative to 7cs? Big-river has the same general structure as holdem games - four rounds of play, a multi-card draw to fifth-street at the second round, five upcards and two downcards at showdown - but it begins at third street and uses a two-card non-communal flip rather than a communal flop at the second round. Since it has the same number of bets as holdem games a similar betting structure may be used for fixed-limit play, with the higher betting level commencing at the third round, which is sixth street. Dealing big-river also evens up the speed of the two elements of the HE/STUD rotation, since big-river 7-street stud is considerably faster than 7cs, not only because it is one round shorter, but also because dealing the river card face up speeds up the game. And taking an express ride to fifth street is just as exciting (and gives better poker value) when you begin at third street as when you begin at second street. ck of excitement of 7cs in rotation with omaha which made me realize the importance of the two-card flip in the first place. wo games have the same, since it has the same four-round layout, with five upcards at showdown and a multi-card draw at the second round. You begin as for 7cs, but then skip the bet at fourth-st and deal a two-card flip to each active player, then deal sixth, then seventh-st face-up. | ||
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| Re: Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, David Zanetti, 8. Nov 2003 18:01 | ||
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| on 8. Nov 2003 17:56 David Zanetti wrote: in the previous post I overlooked some obsolete text at the bottom of the page, and accidentally I sent it, so ignore the last two paragraphs. | ||
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| Re: Forced rotation HE/Stud- how handle stud?, timmer, 9. Nov 2003 18:36 | ||
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| I don't want to seem like an Ashley but think about it for awhile and let me know what you come up with. Ill acknowledge that it give high pairs and high cards a huge advantage bringing it in. | ||
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| Seven Card Stud with Blinds, Harold Pierce, Jr., 10. Nov 2003 03:55 | ||
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| You can play seven card stud with blinds by making these modifactions to traditional seven cards stud: 1. Before the deal the two players to the left of the dealer post a small and big blind as is done in Texas Hold'em. The dealer deals three hole (pocket) cards to each player. The player to the left of the big blind is the first to speak. 2. After the end of the opening (first) round of betting, the dealers deals 4th and 5th streets to each remaining player, i.e., each player receives their own two card flop. The highest two-card hand on the board initiates the second round of betting with a check or small bet. If a pair appears on the board, this player can make a big bet. 3. After the end of the second round of betting, the turn is dealt. The high board hand can check or place a big bet. 4. After the end of the third round of betting, the river card is dealt to the remaining players, and the high board hand starts the final ( i.e., 4th) round of betting. 5. After the end of betting on 7th street, there is a showdown in the usual way. I just invented this variation beacuse it has the same betting structure as Texas Hold'em and should play with about the same pace, and because I don't like to share cards. Since there are only 4 rounds of bettting, it can be played pot and no limit. MouseEars | ||
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| Re: Seven Card Stud with Blinds, Easy E, 10. Nov 2003 20:03 | ||
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| This sounds like Mississippi Stud... ? | ||
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| Re: Seven Card Stud with Blinds, Harold Pierce, Jr., 11. Nov 2003 04:15 | ||
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| on 10. Nov 2003 20:03 Easy E wrote: > This sounds like Mississippi Stud... ? Seven card stud 345 with blinds is not Mississippi stud which has only two hole cards whereas stud 345 has three hole cards which are dealt first. David has proposed that pot and no limit betting structures can have a maximum of four betting rounds. Check his website at www.geociiies.com/mississippi_seven/ for more details about his proposal and for descriptions of a number of new stud variations. I'm promoting seven card stud 435 wherein the three hole cards and fourth street are dealt first, hence the "4". The "3" refers to 5th, 6th and 7th streets being dealt face up with a betting round after each street and a showdown on 7th street in the usual way. The "5" means that 5 cards of the 7 are used to form a poker hand. This variation has four betting rounds and can thus be played with pot and no limit betting structures as proposed by David. His criticism of this variation is that seven card stud can't have 3 hidden cards on deal because there is "too much hidden information." I replied that "Sure it can. This is just another poker game." I have done a very detailed math and stat analysis of stud 435 and have compared it to traditional stud with two parameter: the potential for action (PFA) and the potential-for-action enhancement (PFAE). For example, the PFA for stud 435 high-low is 65.5 % whereas the PFA for trad. stud high-low is 26.2 %. The PFAE of trad. stud is: 65.5 % - 26.2 % / 26.2 % x 100 = 150 %. Position is most important for Texas Hold'em and draw poker games. For these, I devised the weighted-average potential for action (WA-PFA). For Texas Hold'em the WA-PFA is 14.6 %. The PFA's for early (SB, BB and UTG), middle (seats 4, 5, 6 and 7), and late (seats 8, 9 and B) positions are 3.8 %, 14.9 %,and 24.9 %, repectively. I have assembled data for stud 435, trad. stud and for Texas Hold'em, lowball (52 card deck) and California lowball (52 card deck w. the Bug) into a set for really nice tables. If you would like a set post your e-mail to 74563.30@compuserve.com. You won't be disappointed. You will also get a copy of a most recent e-mail to Doyle Brunson, Senior Professor of Poker to whom I sent all of this data and info for his evaluation. I'm doing search for the origin and common name for stud 435. So far I have found it is unknown is in the mainstreams of past (i.e., books) and present poker (websites and notable pokermen). MouseEars | ||
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| Re: Seven Card Stud with Blinds, David Zanetti, 11. Nov 2003 17:41 | ||
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| Yo Harold, how are you? Thanks again for those stats you sent me on fourth-st starting hands BTW. You wrote:, regarding my comments on 345 stud, which as you point out, not the same as the game I call big-river/mississippi - > (DJZ's) criticism of this variation is that seven card stud can't have 3 >hidden cards on deal > because there is "too much hidden information." I replied that "Sure it >can. This is just another poker game." As an inventor, I'm only interested in games which are suitable for the kind of poker they play in world-championships and on Tv, that is, high-stakes no-limit, and as if that wasn't bad enough I'm also saying that everyone can stop looking for those kind of games (not that they were) because I've found them all, or rather, I've found the last two remaining no-limit open-poker layouts: big-river/mississippi seven-streeet stud and alligator six-card stud. REgarding the concealment of more than 2/5 of the hand, I would go further and say that for high-stakes open poker, concealing 3/5 of the hand at any stage is a mistake: it kills the betting power of straights and flushes, because they can never (within reason) be the nuts at showdown. That doesn't matter much for fixed-limits betting but it does when using pot-relative betting, ie anything but fixed limit. The same goes for the number of rounds of play: there is a trade-off between duration and intensity. When the intensity is maximal - using high-stakes pot-relative betting - then the duration is neccesarily limited to four rounds of play for practical reasons: each extra round of play effectively doubles the buy-in required to gain the same amount of betting headroom. There are other good reasons for nott extending the game beyond four rounds - most crucially because it takes away the possibility of a multi-card draw which brings all the major combinations into play at the second round of play - an essential ingredeient for the best results. A strong technical objection to beginning at 4-th street (apart from the problem of how many cards you expose and conceal, which has no good solution) is that you cannot expect to begin with 4/5 of a complete hand: most of the time you will be playing with 3/5 of a hand, or perhaps with a two-way hand which presents a choice of 3/5's of a hand. The problem with this situation is that you only have three more cards to come. So you are beginning (most of the time) at the same point you begin in seven-card stud, that is, with 3/5 of a hand, but unlike seven-card stud you only have three cards to come instead of four. In fact, unless you actually begin with two-pair, trips, a 4-str8 or a 4flush then you are not really playing a "seven-street game" and in a practical sense, you aren't even really at fourth street, despite having four cards to look at. : to all intents and purposes, or mathematically speaking, you are playing a six-street game, beginning at third street with one bench-card, that is, a card dealt at the beginning, over and above the number of cards which can be used in the final hand: if you don't begin with 4/5 of a hand then it is impossible for all your starting cards to be part of the same "complete", that is, made hand. If you want four cards to begin in a stud-poker game - and it is a very good idea for hi-lo games since it provides a variety of strogn two-way hands - - then you are much better off beginning at third street with one card exposed, and dealing one concealed bench card which is discarded prior to showdown. That is, deal three concealed cards and one upcard to begin, and discard (or ignore) one of the concealed cards at showdown. Really, you get plenty of action because with four cards still to come there are a lot more playable starting hands, particularly if you deal the game over four rounds with a two-card flip at the second round. The four-round game is called murrumbidgee, and is big-river/mississippi dealt with one bench-card, ie (2,1)1+2+1+1. It's playable at NL and is excellent for PL, 1/2 pl and fixed-limit, and is particularly suitable for hi-lo. on 11. Nov 2003 04:15 Harold Pierce, Jr. wrote: > on 10. Nov 2003 20:03 Easy E wrote: > > This sounds like Mississippi Stud... ? > > Seven card stud 345 with blinds is not Mississippi stud which has only two hole cards whereas > stud 345 has three hole cards which are dealt first. David has proposed that pot and no limit > betting structures can have a maximum of four betting rounds. Check his website at > www.geociiies.com/mississippi_seven/ for > more details about his proposal and for descriptions of a number of new stud variations. > > I'm promoting seven card stud 435 wherein the three hole cards and fourth street > are dealt first, hence the "4". The "3" refers to 5th, 6th and 7th streets being dealt face up > with a betting round after each street and a showdown on 7th street in the usual way. The "5" > means that 5 cards of the 7 are used to form a poker hand. This variation has four betting > rounds and can thus be played with pot and no limit betting structures as proposed by David. > His criticism of this variation is that seven card stud can't have 3 hidden cards on deal > because there is "too much hidden information." I replied that "Sure it can. This is just > another > poker game." > > I have done a very detailed math and stat analysis of stud 435 and have compared it to > traditional stud with two parameter: the potential for action (PFA) and the > potential-for-action enhancement (PFAE). For example, the PFA for stud 435 high-low is 65.5 % > whereas the PFA for trad. stud high-low is 26.2 %. The PFAE of trad. stud is: 65.5 % - 26.2 % / > 26.2 % x 100 = 150 %. > > Position is most important for Texas Hold'em and draw poker games. For these, > I devised the weighted-average potential for action (WA-PFA). For Texas Hold'em > the WA-PFA is 14.6 %. The PFA's for early (SB, BB and UTG), middle (seats 4, 5, 6 and 7), and > late (seats 8, 9 and B) positions are 3.8 %, 14.9 %,and 24.9 %, repectively. > > I have assembled data for stud 435, trad. stud and for Texas Hold'em, lowball (52 card deck) > and California lowball (52 card deck w. the Bug) into a set for really > nice tables. If you would like a set post your e-mail to 74563.30@compuserve.com. > You won't be disappointed. You will also get a copy of a most recent e-mail to Doyle Brunson, > Senior Professor of Poker to whom I sent all of this data and info for his evaluation. > > I'm doing search for the origin and common name for stud 435. So far I have found it is > unknown is in the mainstreams of past (i.e., books) and present poker (websites and notable > pokermen). > > MouseEars | ||
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| Re: Seven Card Stud with Blinds, Harold Pierce, Jr., 12. Nov 2003 04:11 | ||
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| >I have found them all, or rather, I've found the last two remaining no-limit open-poker layouts: > big-river/mississippi seven-streeet stud and alligator six-card stud. You missed stud 435. I have revised the math tables for stud 435 and I shall send you these to you. > A strong technical objection to beginning at 4th street (apart from the problem of how many cards you expose and conceal, which has no good solution) is that you cannot expect to begin with 4/5 of a complete hand. Of course not. This is an obvious conclusion drawn from the math analysis of stud 435 This is also true for trad. seven card stud. The mostly likely hand you will start with is a pair. A premium pair (AA-TT) is only a partial hand and the odds against being dealt one is 14.3 to 1. >Most of the time you will be playing with 3/5 of a hand, or perhaps with a two-way hand which presents a choice of 3/5's of a hand. The problem with this situation is that you only have three more cards to come. This is what the math analysis says, but it doesn't bother me at all. If you start with a drawing hand in stud 435, it crucial that 5th street improves the hand. If it does, you go on to 6th street. If not, you fold. If 6th street improves your hand, you go to the river if drawing odds are favaorable. If not, you fold unless you are running a bluff. >So you are beginning (most of the time) at the same point you begin in seven-card stud, that is, with 3/5 of a hand, but unlike seven-card stud you only have three cards to come instead of four. In fact, unless you actually begin with two-pair, trips, a 4-str8 or a 4flush then you are not really playing a "seven-street game" and in a practical sense, you aren't even really at fourth street, despite having four cards to look at. For all intents and purposes, or mathematically peaking, you are playing a six-street game, beginning at third street with one bench-card, that is, a card dealt at the beginning, over and above the number of cards which can be used in the final hand. If you don't begin with 4/5 of a hand, then it is impossible for all your starting cards to be part of the same "complete", i.e, made hand. This is more or less correct. However, I don't see the importance of starting with a complete hand. Your objective in any poker game is to WIN MONEY!!! If you look at last portion ofTable 3, you see that the PFA for stud 435 is 42.3% while the PFA for trad. stud is only 16.1%. The potential-for-action enhancement (PFAE) is 163% (I redifined this parameter as the % increase in the PFA of trad. stud). Stud 435 will play for the most part like trad. stud, but there is great speed up in the pace of the game and on occasion you will be dealt a premium betting or drawing hand. Mississippi suffers the same limition as trad. stud: low probabiltiy of being dealt a playable starting hand. Maybe you like to sit around waiting for one, but I don't. Since stud 435 will play about 20% faster than trad stud, the pratical potential-for-action enhancement (PPFAE) is actually 215%. The PPFAE is a parameter that takes into account the number of hands played per unit time. I devised this parameter so that different forms of poker can be compared (e.g. stud, draw, and community forms). The PPFAE might be even greater since the dealer doesn't have to slow down to avoid exposing 7th street. There will also be no delay caused by those who like to squeeze out 7th steert, and there is always one or two of these squeezers in typical game (Pro's don't do this). >If you want four cards to begin in a stud-poker game and it is a very good idea for hi-lo games since it provides a variety of strong two-way hands, then you are much better off beginning at third street with one card exposed, and dealing one concealed bench card which is discarded prior to showdown. That is, deal three concealed cards and one upcard to begin, and discard (or ignore) one of the concealed cards at showdown. This is just too complicated. The main advantages of stud 435 are speed and simplicity. More importantly, any good poker player will figure out how to play stud 435 quite quickly. Suppose you are dealt 3 to a flush or 3 to 7 low. Whether you go on to 5th street or fold will depend on the drawing odds and on the present and implied pot odds for this betting round only when it is your turn to act. This is rather straight forward. As I said, "This is just another poker game." All of you objections are speculation. What counts is how stud 435 will play out in a real poker game with real people. Most certaintly it would vastly improve on-line play. Traditional seven card stud is a real drag when the cards run cold. MouseEars | ||
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