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What a crummy night, SpaceAce, 8. Nov 2003 07:54
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Hi, everyone. I've been lurking around here the last few days and I really like the forums. This is my first post that isn't a reply to someone else.

I just got back from playing the $1-$3 at the Excalibur and I have a few questions I'd like to ask. Sorry, this is going to be a bit long.

First of all, a description of the game: Unusually tight for the $1-$3 game. I wouldn't exactly say the other players were rocks but for the most part the pots were tiny. There was only person I would identify as "good" and he left early. There was a pretty loose player to my right be also left early. The pace of the game was quite quick for a live game. I can't give an exact figure but the hands were being played rapidly.

I've played in this game many times. I always buy in with $100 and usually win. In fact, I won the majority of the first dozen times I went (representing at least 100 hours of playing time as I tend to sit anywhere from 8-12 hours at a stretch). Twice I went home even (actually up $1 or $2) and the other times I went home up anywhere from $80 - $120. I've lost a couple of times but in those cases I was able to identify what caused me to bust out and I am working on those issues.

Tonight I lost my $100 and no matter how much I analyze my play, I can't see what I could have done to change the outcome short of simply getting up and leaving. Here is how the game went for me:

In the course of the entire night (a solid six hours of play), I got exactly four really playable hands.
1) AKs
2) JQs
3) KK
4) AA (this is the hand I busted out on)

Not a single one of these hands won.

Both the AKs and JQs made absolutely nothing. No hearts fell (they were hearts both times), no pairs, no straight draws that I could participate in. I had to let them both go early and both times I would have lost had I stayed in.

With the kings, I was up against pocket nines and, surprise, surprise, a 9 fell on the river. I should point out that by the turn there were two overcards to the person's nines and a three flush (NOT in the suit of either of his nines) showing on the board and yet he stayed in. Obviously I didn't know this until we turned the cards up but HE should have been able to tell it was time to lay his nines down. I bet and raised my kings relentlessly because I was certain they were the best hand right up until the river at which point he bet out and obviously I had to call one more bet with all that money in the pot and no real scares on the board.

The AA was just disgusting. I pumped in what was left of my chips and some joker called me pre and post flop holding K10o and caught kings at the turn and river.

There were a few other hands I played; a couple of AQo and KJo type of hands and two Axs. The only pot I took at showdown the entire night was with an Ax suited that turned into three aces (I was all-in for like $3 at the time). I also split one pot. Everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING, was 39o, J2o, 28s, etc. Utter trash. I wasn't even seeing suited cards, much less decent suited connectors. With one K10o (which I was only playing because I had paid the blind), the flop was QKx (one pair for me which was the _best_ flop for me the entire night along with one other flop that brought me a pair of aces). The turn brought an ace (I was confident my opponent didn't have one) and the river brought... a queen. My opponent turns up some total crap like Q3o which he held in the face of two overcards and heavy betting from me. Not including hands when I was already in the hand because I paid the blind, I don't think I involved myself in more than 10 hands. The problem is that nearly every hand I did get involved in turned out to be a loser.

I don't have any illusions about my skill. I am not a poker master (yet, but I am working on it) but I honestly believe that I play a better game than the majority of the people I come up against at the local low-limit tables (I also play $2/$4 at a couple of places, including Binions). I play online at $.50/$1.00 - $3/$6 and I win consistently. Poker is still a positive expectation excercise for me. I play a very tight game but I am not afraid to bet and if I sense weakness in the other players I will go after them. In fact, the only thing that kept me alive at the table for so long tonight were good steals that I made. In six hours of play I managed to win only ONE hand at a showdown and I was all-in for my last couple of $ on that one. I saw very few showdowns (I either stole or got out of the pot in most cases). Almost without exception, the hands that were headed to showdown got beat on the river. They didn't even get beat at the turn where I could have gotten out and saved a bet or two. When all was said and done, I was the mathematical favorite against pretty much every hand I saw at showdown but I lost every time, anyway.

I know this sort of thing happens to eventually but tonight's game was right out of a poker horror story. My questions are:

1) When is it time to pack it in? Should I set some sort of limit like, "If the button goes around ten times and I don't see a single playable hand, I go home," or, "If I lose two thirds of my buyin without pulling in a pot, I quit," or something else along those lines? Is it better to just play my best and go broke slowly to get it out of the way or is there some indication that the night is lost and I shouldn't be playing?
2) Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effects of ugly cards like this? Am I better off loosening up some and going in with more J10o and 56s types of hands or should I just stay tight and ride it out?
3) Are there some common leaks or mistakes people make in this type of game that could be hurting me without my noticing? This is now the fourth time I've come home a loser from this game after winnin consistently for two months. I wonder if there is something I've changed that is draining my money away. I believe my game has gotten better in the last couple of months and I know it has gotten tighter. Is it possible that I've tightened down too much for low limits like $1-$3? I've read a couple of books on low limit Holdem and I have more on my list but it would help if someone could tell me, "Watch out for [some particular mistake]."
4) (This is sort of related to #3) Is it possible that some change in my no-limit game has seeped in to damage my low limit game? I absolutely mop up in no-limit when I play in the $25 and $100 buyin games online. I have yet to play no-limit in a casino (I've played it live but not in a casino). I play low limit because I am trying to increase my knowledge and game experience with as little risk as possible but I tend to do much better overall in no-limit. Except for the occasional disasterous pot, no-limit is actually less swingy of a game for me. I constantly find my chips dropping and then jumping back up in low limit games but I move pretty steadily upward when playing no-limit.

I know that is a LOT of text and I apologize for that. I also realize I didn't give a lot of details on specific hands so I don't expect you to be able to tell me point-by-point what I should have done with each card but any tips or comments on dealing with crappy cards in low limit Holdem are appreciated. If anyone wants me to, I can post details about some hands and how I played them. I also don't expect answers handed to me on a silver platter and I have a lot of reading material in mind but I always find it helpful to get answers directly from other players instead of reading pre-written ones in someone's book.

Thanks,
SpaceAce
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Re: What a crummy night, Piers Majestyk, 8. Nov 2003 08:55
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on 8. Nov 2003 07:54 SpaceAce wrote:
> Hi, everyone. I've been lurking around here the last few days and I really like
> the forums. This is my first post that isn't a reply to someone else.
>
> I just got back from playing the $1-$3 at the Excalibur and I have a few
> questions I'd like to ask. Sorry, this is going to be a bit long.
>
> First of all, a description of the game: Unusually tight for the $1-$3 game. I
> wouldn't exactly say the other players were rocks but for the most part the
> pots were tiny. There was only person I would identify as "good" and he left
> early. There was a pretty loose player to my right be also left early. The pace
> of the game was quite quick for a live game. I can't give an exact figure but
> the hands were being played rapidly.
>
> I've played in this game many times. I always buy in with $100 and usually win.
> In fact, I won the majority of the first dozen times I went (representing at
> least 100 hours of playing time as I tend to sit anywhere from 8-12 hours at a
> stretch). Twice I went home even (actually up $1 or $2) and the other times I
> went home up anywhere from $80 - $120. I've lost a couple of times but in those
> cases I was able to identify what caused me to bust out and I am working on
> those issues.
>
> Tonight I lost my $100 and no matter how much I analyze my play, I can't see
> what I could have done to change the outcome short of simply getting up and
> leaving. Here is how the game went for me:
>
> In the course of the entire night (a solid six hours of play), I got exactly
> four really playable hands.
> 1) AKs
> 2) JQs
> 3) KK
> 4) AA (this is the hand I busted out on)
>
> Not a single one of these hands won.
>
> Both the AKs and JQs made absolutely nothing. No hearts fell (they were hearts
> both times), no pairs, no straight draws that I could participate in. I had to
> let them both go early and both times I would have lost had I stayed in.
>
> With the kings, I was up against pocket nines and, surprise, surprise, a 9 fell
> on the river. I should point out that by the turn there were two overcards to
> the person's nines and a three flush (NOT in the suit of either of his nines)
> showing on the board and yet he stayed in. Obviously I didn't know this until
> we turned the cards up but HE should have been able to tell it was time to lay
> his nines down. I bet and raised my kings relentlessly because I was certain
> they were the best hand right up until the river at which point he bet out and
> obviously I had to call one more bet with all that money in the pot and no real
> scares on the board.
>
> The AA was just disgusting. I pumped in what was left of my chips and some
> joker called me pre and post flop holding K10o and caught kings at the turn and
> river.
>
> There were a few other hands I played; a couple of AQo and KJo type of hands
> and two Axs. The only pot I took at showdown the entire night was with an Ax
> suited that turned into three aces (I was all-in for like $3 at the time). I
> also split one pot. Everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING, was 39o, J2o, 28s,
> etc. Utter trash. I wasn't even seeing suited cards, much less decent suited
> connectors. With one K10o (which I was only playing because I had paid the
> blind), the flop was QKx (one pair for me which was the _best_ flop for me the
> entire night along with one other flop that brought me a pair of aces). The turn
> brought an ace (I was confident my opponent didn't have one) and the river
> brought... a queen. My opponent turns up some total crap like Q3o which he held
> in the face of two overcards and heavy betting from me. Not including hands when
> I was already in the hand because I paid the blind, I don't think I involved
> myself in more than 10 hands. The problem is that nearly every hand I did get
> involved in turned out to be a loser.
>
> I don't have any illusions about my skill. I am not a poker master (yet, but I
> am working on it) but I honestly believe that I play a better game than the
> majority of the people I come up against at the local low-limit tables (I also
> play $2/$4 at a couple of places, including Binions). I play online at
> $.50/$1.00 - $3/$6 and I win consistently. Poker is still a positive expectation
> excercise for me. I play a very tight game but I am not afraid to bet and if I
> sense weakness in the other players I will go after them. In fact, the only
> thing that kept me alive at the table for so long tonight were good steals that
> I made. In six hours of play I managed to win only ONE hand at a showdown and I
> was all-in for my last couple of $ on that one. I saw very few showdowns (I
> either stole or got out of the pot in most cases). Almost without exception, the
> hands that were headed to showdown got beat on the river. They didn't even get
> beat at the turn where I could have gotten out and saved a bet or two. When all
> was said and done, I was the mathematical favorite against pretty much every
> hand I saw at showdown but I lost every time, anyway.
>
> I know this sort of thing happens to eventually but tonight's game was right
> out of a poker horror story. My questions are:
>
> 1) When is it time to pack it in? Should I set some sort of limit like, "If the
> button goes around ten times and I don't see a single playable hand, I go home,"
> or, "If I lose two thirds of my buyin without pulling in a pot, I quit," or
> something else along those lines? Is it better to just play my best and go broke
> slowly to get it out of the way or is there some indication that the night is
> lost and I shouldn't be playing?

I don't believe setting time limits is your problem. As long as you are wanting to play and feel you are a favorite in the game then getting up because you have had a series of bad beats, bad cards or whatever is not a reason to quit the game unless you are losing an amount which is endangering your bankroll which shouldn't be happening if you are a winning player and playing according to the limits of your BR.
> 2) Is there anything that can be done to lessen the effects of ugly cards like
> this? Am I better off loosening up some and going in with more J10o and 56s
> types of hands or should I just stay tight and ride it out?
For the most part just stay tight and ride it out in my opinion, the game you describe has people staying with Q3 off etc. so just remain patient and hopefully punish them when the opportunity arrises which in some sessions unfortunately never happens:) Wednesday I must have hit every draw I was going for, etc. Won 114 BB, Thursday another good day with lost of good fortune, Won 46 BB. Last night a horrible nightmare, I hit alot of my good hands only to be rivered by a seemingly endless number of flushes (I even lost a full house to a straight flush). But I remained calm and continued to play my game and ended up miraculously with a +14 BB night. What I am saying there are just going to be nights, sometimes many in a row in which you do nothing wrong and still end up on the losing end of the stick, you just have to realize that and handle it calmly and know tht if you are a winning player these things happen but will turn around (most importantly don't get out of line and make things worse by playing subpar hands, that is not the answer.)
> 3) Are there some common leaks or mistakes people make in this type of game
> that could be hurting me without my noticing? This is now the fourth time I've
> come home a loser from this game after winnin consistently for two months. I
> wonder if there is something I've changed that is draining my money away. I
> believe my game has gotten better in the last couple of months and I know it has
> gotten tighter. Is it possible that I've tightened down too much for low limits
> like $1-$3? I've read a couple of books on low limit Holdem and I have more on
> my list but it would help if someone could tell me, "Watch out for [some
> particular mistake]."
> 4) (This is sort of related to #3) Is it possible that some change in my
> no-limit game has seeped in to damage my low limit game? I absolutely mop up in
> no-limit when I play in the $25 and $100 buyin games online. I have yet to play
> no-limit in a casino (I've played it live but not in a casino). I play low limit
> because I am trying to increase my knowledge and game experience with as little
> risk as possible but I tend to do much better overall in no-limit. Except for
> the occasional disasterous pot, no-limit is actually less swingy of a game for
> me. I constantly find my chips dropping and then jumping back up in low limit
> games but I move pretty steadily upward when playing no-limit.
>
> I know that is a LOT of text and I apologize for that. I also realize I didn't
> give a lot of details on specific hands so I don't expect you to be able to tell
> me point-by-point what I should have done with each card but any tips or
> comments on dealing with crappy cards in low limit Holdem are appreciated. If
> anyone wants me to, I can post details about some hands and how I played them. I
> also don't expect answers handed to me on a silver platter and I have a lot of
> reading material in mind but I always find it helpful to get answers directly
> from other players instead of reading pre-written ones in someone's book.
>
> Thanks,
> SpaceAce
>

Hope this helps some, don't let last night bother you. Today is a new day with a new lineup and new opportunities. Good luck.
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Re: What a crummy night, Piers Majestyk, 8. Nov 2003 12:56
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One more thing I forgot to mention that is important. If you are going to play keep enough chips on the table so you can make it to the showdown without going allin. I see people all the time with 3 or 4 dollars on the table online and they pick up AA or KK and only win a fraction of what they should have won. If you don't have enough money with you to finish off a hand with a couple of raises you probably should get up from the table.
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Re: What a crummy night, SpaceAce, 8. Nov 2003 19:13
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on 8. Nov 2003 12:56 Piers Majestyk wrote:
> One more thing I forgot to mention that is important. If you are going to play keep
> enough chips on the table so you can make it to the showdown without going allin. I see
> people all the time with 3 or 4 dollars on the table online and they pick up AA or KK and
> only win a fraction of what they should have won. If you don't have enough money with you
> to finish off a hand with a couple of raises you probably should get up from the table.

Yes, I considered throwing a $20 under my rack for just that reason but the way things were going, I decided against it. Since both the KK and AA went down, I'm glad I didn't waste any more money in this particular case.

SpaceAce
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Re: What a crummy night, SpaceAce, 8. Nov 2003 19:11
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> I don't believe setting time limits is your problem. As long as you are wanting to
> play and feel you are a favorite in the game then getting up because you have had a
> series of bad beats, bad cards or whatever is not a reason to quit the game unless
> you are losing an amount which is endangering your bankroll which shouldn't be
> happening if you are a winning player and playing according to the limits of your
> BR.


The vast majority of the $100 I lost was on hands where I had the best cards right up until the end. As long as I believe I am winning the hand, I will get as much money into the pot as possible unless I see a large number of draws that could bust my hand in which case I will play it a bit safer. I believe I was respectful of the limits of a $100 buyin but if I have kings and fives, I'm not going to slow down my betting when I think my opponent has nothing but a pair. It doesn't take too many chasers getting lucky to eat $100 in that situation.

> For the most part just stay tight and ride it out in my opinion, the game you
> describe has people staying with Q3 off etc. so just remain patient and hopefully
> punish them when the opportunity arrises which in some sessions unfortunately never
> happens:) Wednesday I must have hit every draw I was going for, etc. Won 114 BB,
> Thursday another good day with lost of good fortune, Won 46 BB. Last night a
> horrible nightmare, I hit alot of my good hands only to be rivered by a seemingly
> endless number of flushes (I even lost a full house to a straight flush). But I
> remained calm and continued to play my game and ended up miraculously with a +14 BB
> night. What I am saying there are just going to be nights, sometimes many in a row
> in which you do nothing wrong and still end up on the losing end of the stick, you
> just have to realize that and handle it calmly and know tht if you are a winning
> player these things happen but will turn around (most importantly don't get out of
> line and make things worse by playing subpar hands, that is not the answer.)

I also believe staying tight is the answer but after a night like last night I wanted to hear someone else say it, too. Like you said, sometimes the opportunity to punish them never comes along and that's how it was last night. Actually, I got opportunities to punish them a couple of times but things always swung in their favor by the end of the hand.

> Hope this helps some, don't let last night bother you. Today is a new day with a new
> lineup and new opportunities. Good luck.

Thanks. I don't usually get too disturbed by a loss but I can't express in words just how bogus my cards were last night. Six hours with four really playable hands. I'm sure that's not a record or anything but it sure did suck.

SpaceAce
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Re: What a crummy night, Piers Majestyk, 9. Nov 2003 01:32
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You think you had a crummy night I can probably top you:) Tonight was one of the worse if not the worse single downslides during my 9 year career for one session. I was down 90 BB playing at three tables against some of the softest lineups I have ever faced. Started the night off with a rash of KK hands: result 1 for 9. First five AA: 1 for 5 (a really nice one, my AA other person KK, other 99, posted player behind me 44. Capped preflop: Flop 944:) the only good thing that happened is I didn't turn or river an Ace.
As tight as I play online that is some serious asswhippings. But the good news that after only 13 hours I finished the night up 2.5 BB. One of the sweetest single session victories I have ever had. Take home message, you are going to have some serious, serious bad luck at times but if you maintain your discipline and keep within your bankroll things have a way of evening out. Continued good luck.
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Re: What a crummy night, SpaceAce, 9. Nov 2003 22:02
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Thanks for the luck wishes :) The day after I posted that message, I played on PartyPoker and it started off just like the night before had ended at the Excalibur. The few good hands I got were cracked by river rats or someone flopping their third 6 over my KK. One person flopped quad 5s when I had AA. How could I possibly see that coming? Anyway, I got down to about $4 then caught lucky in two hands where I should have lost and made my way back up to around $90. Not too bad for having been down to $4.

Sadly, today's online play has me down about $100. I hope I can turn it around.

SpaceAce
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Re: What a crummy night, Denver, 11. Nov 2003 09:25
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I quit playing multiple tables for precisely that reason. While their is a point of diminishing returns based on the lesser amount of information one can get when bouncing around I also didn't enjoy the horrendous swings. Dropping 50+BB in a couple of hours is not fun, especially when you don't have 13 hours to try and get it back. I came to within inches last month of busting out, but I went back to the tried and true: 1 ring game or 1 SnG at a time and my bankroll is back above where it was when I did the whole multi-table experiment. In hindsight, I obviously didn't have the bankroll to play 2-3 tables at the same limit where I had traditionally only played 1 table.
It works well for some, but I found out I'm not ready (mentally or financially).
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Re: What a crummy night, grant pittman, 11. Nov 2003 08:01
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Spaceace I can relate to your frustration and confusion. If you are going to make poker part of a regular routine you will have to accept that you can't always win. When things go well you must think to yourself "How could I ever lose....I'm better than these guys and so they can't beat me". It does feel like that sometimes in poker but at other times you will wonder how you could ever win a hand....forget about a session!!! I am currently going through a very dry run of cards (on a 7 week dry spell playing limits from $50-$100 to $200-$400 and some pot-limit).....not only has it been frustrating but it burns you out emotionally and mentally. In my opinion these down times are the real test for poker players....how you handle these bad runs will tell a lot about your longevity in the game as well as how well you do while you are around. Hang in there Spaceace!!! If you are playing better than your opponents you have no worries. Good luck!!!! GRANT PITTMAN
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