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Server Time: 9/5/2008 4:46:49 PM PACIFIC |
 KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, Snorbolus, 7. Nov 2003 00:11 | ||
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| I raise first in from middle position with red Kings. Two cold callers behind (both loose callers), both blinds call. Flop: 10d 7c 6c The blinds both check. I am quite new to the table but, based on what I have seen so far, I am pretty sure that at least one of these guys behind will bet for me if I check. So I go for a check raise: I check, first cold caller checks, second cold caller bets. Small blind folds, big blind (who is tilting some after a string of bad beats from the betting cold caller), calls. I raise. First cold caller folds. Betting cold caller 3 bets, big blind calls again. I don't like it any more but I call the extra bet. Turn: 2h Big blind checks, I check, 3 betting cold caller bets. Big blind calls. I will post the outcome if anybody asks for it, but in the meantime, what do you all think of my play? For my part I am unsure about calling that 3 bet on the flop. I suspected that 3 betting cold caller was capable of making that play with as little as a flush or straight draw. However, I was also sure that he would 3 bet there with 2 pair or better. Also, if he did have 2 pair or better there is no way that he would have folded it, no matter what. So basically I was drawing to the Ks on the turn, and even that might not have been clean. I now believe that I should have folded to the 3 bet on the flop. Any other opinions out there? Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, PairTheBoard, 7. Nov 2003 01:05 | ||
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| If he's the type of player who never misses a bet then his bet and your raise are almost obligatory getting to know you introductions. His reraise then carries the weight of a normal original bet. He may put you on AK and asking if he really means it when you raise him. If he has AT he will reraise indicating that he does mean it. If he's really hyper agressive his reraise may also be obligatory and you won't know if he's even as good as AT until he pops you once or twice on the turn. LOL Of course, I may just have been playing too many maniacs lately. | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, Snorbolus, 7. Nov 2003 07:52 | ||
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| This guy was not a maniac. He was very loose pre-flop. Very tenatious post-flop, but not especially aggressive. At the time I did not believe that he would have 3 bet there with top pair. I considered a good draw as possibility because he was running very hot. He had stayed with a lot of poor draws and hit them all. Hence the tilting big blind. I had not seen the 3 betting cold caller reraise on a draw before, but he seemed to be enjoying the displeasure of tilting big blind who was constantly loosing to him. In summary I thought 2 pair or better was his most likely holding but that a good flush or straight draw was a possibility. Snorbolus on 7. Nov 2003 01:05 PairTheBoard wrote: > If he's the type of player who never misses a bet then his bet and your raise are > almost obligatory getting to know you introductions. His reraise then carries the > weight of a normal original bet. He may put you on AK and asking if he really means > it when you raise him. If he has AT he will reraise indicating that he does mean it. > If he's really hyper agressive his reraise may also be obligatory and you won't know > if he's even as good as AT until he pops you once or twice on the turn. > > LOL > > Of course, I may just have been playing too many maniacs lately. | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, shorn, 7. Nov 2003 07:14 | ||
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| I would have bet out the flop and capped it without question. Sure, you might be against two pair (76), but you simply can't let anyone draw cheaply to that flop with the potential str8 and flush draws. Now, on the turn, I would bet out again and if after I capped the guy raised me again, then you should probably muck. However, I won't let someone push me off KK on a flop unless it contains: a pair, 2 flush cards not of my suit, or an Ace with heavy action. It isn't like you have 6 opponents on this flop...you have 3 by the end. So, I think you need to be aggressive here until the turn. Steve | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, Mark Barnett II, 7. Nov 2003 10:12 | ||
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| couldnt he be thinking of charging the BB more for drawing with his reraise *who is only calling currently* Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, mfs, 7. Nov 2003 11:09 | ||
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| I would have definately bet the flop here, risking giving a free card here would be very bad with this board. Assuming that the guy to my left raises and it is cold called by the blind I think I would just call here. It appears that one or two of my opponents is on a draw so I feel that it is better to not put in any more bets at this time and see what comes off on the turn. If I felt reraising would make other players fold I may have done that instead, but that is not likely here. If it is checked to me on the turn I am going to bet no matter what comes off to see were I am at. If I am raised I will most likely fold. In your particular scenario, I agree with Shorn, I would cap the betting, bet out on the turn and hope for a free showdown. I would have capped because if I am going to call the raise I might as well cap for one extra bet and regain the initiative. | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, Snorbolus, 7. Nov 2003 11:27 | ||
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| mfs, shorn and MB II, Thanks for your input. Your suggestions are all plays that I considered. At the time I decided not to go the aggressive route because I thought that I was most likely behind and with no draw. I wouldn't have posted if I was sure that I played the hand well. I am very interested in what range of hands you put the 3 betting cold caller and the tilting big blind on. See my reply to Pair the Board for more information on my reads of these opponents. Thanks again, Snorbolus on 7. Nov 2003 11:09 mfs wrote: > I would have definately bet the flop here, risking giving a free card here would be > very bad with this board. Assuming that the guy to my left raises and it is cold > called by the blind I think I would just call here. It appears that one or two of my > opponents is on a draw so I feel that it is better to not put in any more bets at > this time and see what comes off on the turn. If I felt reraising would make other > players fold I may have done that instead, but that is not likely here. If it is > checked to me on the turn I am going to bet no matter what comes off to see were I am > at. If I am raised I will most likely fold. > > In your particular scenario, I agree with Shorn, I would cap the betting, bet out on > the turn and hope for a free showdown. I would have capped because if I am going to > call the raise I might as well cap for one extra bet and regain the initiative. | ||
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| Re: KK from middle position $4,8 hold'em, Schuster, 7. Nov 2003 12:42 | ||
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| I really do not like a checkraise here. If the guy behind you bets, no one will be confronted with a double bet. If the next guy bets, only one person will be confronted with a double bet. If it's checked around, you're giving a free card with that board. I don't consider any of the three scenarios very attractive. The board is very coordinated and you do not want to let someone draw or pick up a draw for free. The other thing is that even if he has 2 pair, you have enough outs to play. You'll have 8 on the turn, but you don't know what 6 of them are, so it's a bit tricky, but still worth playing. I would have seen the river in that spot. He might have had something like Ac 8c or Tc Xc and was pumping the pot with his big draw. Folding here against 3 opponents is a little weak in my opinion. Lee | ||
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