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Server Time: 11/23/2008 4:44:38 AM PACIFIC |
 NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, Barry T, 6. Nov 2003 16:54 | ||
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| Hi. For variety, I played a no limit mulit-table tournament on Party. First, I was amazed at the size. $30 tournament, 10 PM Pacific, attracted 450 players. Hand 2, I have AA, make a potrsized raise of the blinds, and a guy pushed all in ($1000), OK, I call. He has 88 and I win (foreshadowing music here.) I while later, I get 99, guy makes a small raise pre-flop, I make a pot sized re-raise, he pushes all in. For various reasons I think he has a pair smaller than mine, and I call (he really can't hurt my stack much at that point). He has 88, and win. (Music getting louder). I win another nice pot when my AKs beats JJ. Then nothing but a few steals, and I am down to an average stack (around $7K) with $300-600 blinds with six tables left. They pay five tables -- $67 for fifth table. First is $3300. I am in the SB with...88! All fold to the button, who pushes all-in with $5500). He has not made this type of play before, and I decide he would try to get some action on a premium hand. He might have Ax (I am a 2:1 favorite), a small pair, (I am a big favorite), a medium pair (I am a big dog) or two medium cards (JT type - I am even money). I can be in the money by folding and waiting for a better chance. But this seems like a decent chance to me, and I am almost certainly ahead, probably by a lot. I call. If I lose, I will be in bad shape with $1500 left. He has A4 suited. I lose, and bust out shortly. Comments, Please? BarryT | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, mkpoker, 6. Nov 2003 17:07 | ||
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| I'm no tourney expert (heck, I'm no ANYTHING expert), but it seems to me that you played this well. You had the right read, got your money in as a big favorite (2:1), and just got unlucky. True, you could have tightened up and almost certainly made it into the money, but I'm guessing you weren't playing for 45th place and a $30 profit. As an average stack with 60ish people left, you need to get some more chips and put yourself into contention to win this thing (or come close). Given the situation, your call seems like a prudent risk. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, KJo, 6. Nov 2003 17:19 | ||
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| Clearly he didn't want anyone to call since he pushed in his whole stack, up against a bigger stack no less. I ask myself when facing that bet what hands I would be afraid to face if I were him, and 88 is certainly one of them. If he had 99 or TT he might have done the same thing, but if he had a pocket pair bigger than that he probably would have wanted action (I know I would). So, like you, I would consider myself ahead in this situation, and do the same thing, working with the knowledge that big all-in bets like his almost never want to get called, and you have a hand that he really doesn't want to see. Eli on 6. Nov 2003 16:54 Barry T wrote: > Hi. For variety, I played a no limit mulit-table tournament on Party. First, I > was amazed at the size. $30 tournament, 10 PM Pacific, attracted 450 players. > > > Hand 2, I have AA, make a potrsized raise of the blinds, and a guy pushed all > in ($1000), OK, I call. He has 88 and I win (foreshadowing music here.) > > I while later, I get 99, guy makes a small raise pre-flop, I make a pot sized > re-raise, he pushes all in. For various reasons I think he has a pair smaller > than mine, and I call (he really can't hurt my stack much at that point). He > has 88, and win. (Music getting louder). > > I win another nice pot when my AKs beats JJ. Then nothing but a few steals, > and I am down to an average stack (around $7K) with $300-600 blinds with six > tables left. They pay five tables -- $67 for fifth table. First is $3300. > > I am in the SB with...88! All fold to the button, who pushes all-in with > $5500). He has not made this type of play before, and I decide he would try to > get some action on a premium hand. He might have Ax (I am a 2:1 favorite), a > small pair, (I am a big favorite), a medium pair (I am a big dog) or two medium > cards (JT type - I am even money). I can be in the money by folding and waiting > for a better chance. > > But this seems like a decent chance to me, and I am almost certainly ahead, > probably by a lot. I call. If I lose, I will be in bad shape with $1500 left. > > He has A4 suited. I lose, and bust out shortly. > > Comments, Please? > > BarryT > > | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, shorn, 7. Nov 2003 06:59 | ||
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| Barry- I will be the wimp here and say that I don't like the call. This late in the tournament I agree that you need to get some chips together to make a run at the final table, but I just don't think 88 is strong enough for that. I think it is an "on the bubble" hand that because of your position and because he was the one who showed the aggression (albeit from a steal position), I would have had to have a stone cold read on this player to make that play. I have mucked and waited for a better spot. You are in no danger yet of blinding out, so you should have other opportunities to double through someone where you can be the aggressor and hopefully with a better hand. Steve | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, Mark Barnett II, 7. Nov 2003 09:52 | ||
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| my idea would be the golf adage, you cant win the tournement here but you sure can lose it. just to many things i think work against you here and your calling an all in not pushing all in. in response to someone who said your trying to win it all, not just get in the money, thats fine but he is in no danger of going broke anytime soon and making the money is +EV Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, shorn, 7. Nov 2003 09:56 | ||
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| Well put Mark. I like the golf adage. Too bad Tiger doesn't follow that all the time... | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, mkpoker, 7. Nov 2003 10:40 | ||
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| Steve, What would you do if this were an open hand...If you knew for an absolute fact that the button held Ax and your 88 was bascially 2:1 favorite. I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out if your hesistance is based on the uncertainty of Barry's read or the extent of his edge. --matt | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, shorn, 7. Nov 2003 11:45 | ||
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| It would be based on the uncertainty of the read. If I knew what the button held, then 2:1 is pretty darn good and I would most certainly call. However, since poker is a game of imperfect information AND Barry is not up against it yet blind wise with a short stack, I don't think he should push this one. He can certainly lose any chance of winning the tournament on this hand as Mark pointed out, but he cannot win it here. 88 is too weak in this particular spot in my mind. Steve | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, Barry T, 7. Nov 2003 12:05 | ||
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| Hiu. I agree. I should not have made this play. In addition to the fact that I could be in trouble some of the time, there is also the big blind to cionsider. He might wake up with a hand. I would feel sick if he also decided to play. I know I want to be the raiser and not the caller in tournaments, but I seem to get this annoyed reaction when I get pushed around by what I am pretty sure is a mediocre hand. I need to get over it. I should have waited. Thanks for the replies. BarryT | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, mkpoker, 7. Nov 2003 12:35 | ||
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| I've run some numbers, and yes, you're both right. It was a marginal call. Barry's read (which makes perfect sense) is that the button doesn't have a premium hand (which I interpret to mean AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, or AJ) but probably does hold either a small or middle pair, Ax, or two high cards. What exactly does that include? I've made a few guesses and assumed he could have any of the the following (you could certainly argue for adding or removing a few hands, but the principle remains the same). The button has either: Medium pairs: 99, TT, or JJ (which means Barry's in massive trouble) Small pairs: 22-77 (which means Barry's a massive favorite) Overcards (AT, A9, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT), which means Barry's a very narrow favorite; or Ax (A2-A8), which means Barry's a 2:1 favorite. Given the number of card combinations, I estimate there's a 44% chance the button has overcards, a 37% chance he has Ax, a 12% chance he has an UNDERpair, and only a 6% chance he has an OVERpair. That sounds promising (only a 6% chance that Barry's hand is dominated). BUT, the overcards are essentially a coin flip vs. 88 and even Ax will get lucky 1/3 of the time. Add it all together and it means that Barry is only a 3:2 favorite to win this hand against the button's possible holdings (I'll post up all these calculations if anyone really wants). That's a close decision. If it were me (not a good tourney player), I'd take the odds. But Barry probably has enough of an edge that he shouldn't risk it all on a 3:2 favorite. Good question, though. Thanks. | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, Schuster, 7. Nov 2003 12:49 | ||
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| > I know I want to be the raiser and not the caller in tournaments, but I seem to get this annoyed > reaction when I get pushed around by what I am pretty sure is a mediocre hand. I need to get over > it. I think this sums it up nicely. You're losing a lot by having no chance of the opponent folding. Lee | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, Formless, 8. Nov 2003 11:07 | ||
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| I keep a very basic spreadsheet of tournament results and sometimes add a comment about how I played the tournament. I started to notice "Busted out w/88" a lot, so I really just avoid playing this hand in do or die situations. I think the button's raise smells fishy and you quite possibly have him middled and have a nice edge here, but even KJs or QT has you flipping a coin. If you call, you are playing for first place. If you fold, you are playing to get in the money. Either plan makes sense in my opinion and if you started the tournament with a game plan, the decision is already made for you. on 6. Nov 2003 16:54 Barry T wrote: > Hi. For variety, I played a no limit mulit-table tournament on Party. First, I > was amazed at the size. $30 tournament, 10 PM Pacific, attracted 450 players. > > > Hand 2, I have AA, make a potrsized raise of the blinds, and a guy pushed all > in ($1000), OK, I call. He has 88 and I win (foreshadowing music here.) > > I while later, I get 99, guy makes a small raise pre-flop, I make a pot sized > re-raise, he pushes all in. For various reasons I think he has a pair smaller > than mine, and I call (he really can't hurt my stack much at that point). He > has 88, and win. (Music getting louder). > > I win another nice pot when my AKs beats JJ. Then nothing but a few steals, > and I am down to an average stack (around $7K) with $300-600 blinds with six > tables left. They pay five tables -- $67 for fifth table. First is $3300. > > I am in the SB with...88! All fold to the button, who pushes all-in with > $5500). He has not made this type of play before, and I decide he would try to > get some action on a premium hand. He might have Ax (I am a 2:1 favorite), a > small pair, (I am a big favorite), a medium pair (I am a big dog) or two medium > cards (JT type - I am even money). I can be in the money by folding and waiting > for a better chance. > > But this seems like a decent chance to me, and I am almost certainly ahead, > probably by a lot. I call. If I lose, I will be in bad shape with $1500 left. > > He has A4 suited. I lose, and bust out shortly. > > Comments, Please? > > BarryT > > | ||
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| Re: NLHE Tourney: Too impatient?, LJH, 8. Nov 2003 12:30 | ||
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| BARRY, YOU WERE WRONG. LJH | ||
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