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Server Time: 2/13/2012 12:12:02 PM PACIFIC |
 SnG Help, Dr_Monkey, 4. Nov 2003 10:01 | ||
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| Are these bad plays? #1 $11 SnG, Blinds 25/50. 5 players. 2 limp and I am on the button with 99. I go all in for 810. All fold except guy on my right who has 2000+. Why I went all in with 99? I have played very tight. Wanted to take the pot right there since people only limped in. I like this move, in LP or OTB with limpers in front, a big bet can take a nice pot. He called and made a set for his pocket 5s on the flop. Is all in here too aggressive or was I just unlucky? #2 $11 SnG. Blinds 50/100. 5 Players. I am UTG with QJo and about 1000 in chips. No real dominate player at table chip wise. Range from 800 - 1500. I raise to 300, hoping to steal the blinds. OTB pauses and calls. He had 800 before his call. Was this too aggressive with QJo? I felt I had to get aggressive. I normally would fold this hand. With 1000 and 50/100 blinds, should I feel the need to get aggressive? | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, ReMMy, 4. Nov 2003 10:13 | ||
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| Yes, you were too aggresive in #1. A raise of 300 will be enough to take anyone off of a cheese hand. A raise of all in will not take anyone off AA or KK, and many AK's QQ JJ 10 10's will call. Even an inferior hand might call you and beat you. You MUST avoid coin flip situations that early if you want to win. Thats not to say you shouldn't be aggressive, but all in's on 99 is not a good idea. If everyone folds you just put in 900 to take down 300, this is NOT a good return. Stealing blinds is a great idea, but when you get caught, you get caught and you need to be disciplined enought to accept this. My personal strategy is to play very passive for the first half. Once the blinds hit 100/200 or more I will change gears and start attacking blinds and smaller stacks. Keep in mind that any short stack who goes all in in the later stages often has at least an A high, if your stack if big enough and you have a pocket pair or A9 or higher than you may want to gamble on a 50/50 situation. My biggest advice is to basically avoid all in situations when you don't know you have the best hand. A 2/3 size of the pot bet will usually take it down... GL | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, palman, 4. Nov 2003 19:16 | ||
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| Both are bad plays, however I feel in example 1 your all in move was better than say raising it to 300 or so. With pocket pairs I either like to limp or all in, and this situation isn't one that warrants going all in so why not limp. The pot is only 175 at this point and not really worth the chance of someone slowplaying a monster. if you arent called you risked your whole tournament for 175 chips, In all odds (as wasn't the case here) if you're called its a coinflip. All in bets like this look like a bluff, think about it this way, would any normal person play rockets like this? Thus this will naturally get more loose callers than you'd like your all ins with 99 to get. Combine that with the amount of loose calls inherently made by the average sit n go, and its a dangerous play (plus my 9's have flopped a set for me some ridiculous amount of times in a row, so I like to see the flop, but thats just me and my recent luck =) ) You've got 800 chips after being the big blind, no reason to gamble yet with blinds this small. I personally like to wait until blinds are 100/200 to gamble if I havent hit yet and am shortstacked. Which leads to situation #2. I don't think 50/100 blinds are worth the risk reward here. First reason why take a chance with QJo, Second reason, you want people to lay down pots at 100/200 or 150/300, making the obvious position bet now not only rewards you little now, it potentially costs you in the future when your position bet later gets less respect. 1000 chips is no where near need to get aggressive time, position bet combined with people naturally playing looser 5 handed, QJo is not the hand you want to risk 1/3 of your stack on and potentially lose it all on. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, chmurray, 4. Nov 2003 20:29 | ||
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| just my take on SnG's but whatever - early on I never, ever, raise unless i have AK, AA, or KK. I also severly lower what hands are playable (but I play cheap ones where 5+ often enter the pot). Basically I'm trying to find a flop like A66 where I have 96 offsuit, and someone with an ace wants to pay me off. Basically I try to look dangerous early. I'll even do this when the blinds are around 100 if i have a good stack and I like the situation. I'll play 10s 9s against a big raise just cause I know if I flop two pair or a straight/flush draw I'm going to double up. Then I start to slow down. I start only playing premium hands and defending my blinds if I think I can. This is usually when we go from 6-8 players to 4-5. I won't start blind stealing until theres four left - the money cutoff line at a single table is 3 - and then I'll go all in with decent hands (a9 suited and higher, pretty much any pair) and I'll limp with any tier 1 hand and hope for a big raise to "punish the guy whose obviously playing small suited connectors hoping for a cheap flop". Going all-in in the early stages with anything less that AA when you don't need to isn't a good idea. The blinds just aren't worth it. I would like comments on this style. Since the only times i'm out before the final four are when AA or KK get cracked by smaller pockets, I'm almost always at the money cutoff, and with my aggressive play I almost always get 1st, 2nd, or 4th, if I'm unlucky enough to run into a better ace or higher pair. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, Dr_Monkey, 5. Nov 2003 08:30 | ||
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| My questions and comments are below: on 4. Nov 2003 20:29 chmurray wrote: > just my take on SnG's but whatever - early on I never, ever, raise unless i have AK, AA, > or KK. I also severly lower what hands are playable (but I play cheap ones where 5+ often > enter the pot). Basically I'm trying to find a flop like A66 where I have 96 offsuit, and > someone with an ace wants to pay me off. Basically I try to look dangerous early. By early, I assume you mean 10/15 and 15/30 blinds? I can see the goal of this strategy and I agree it would be profitable, but playing 96o, unless you are in the BB, just seems like a wasted bet. Not trying to be critical, just trying to understand, since I can't see myself using this play. Maybe if I was LP or OTB. I would be more comfortable with suited connectors trying to hit your kind of flop. But honestly, I don't like playing suited connectors. (maybe that is a flaw in my game?) Are you playing 96o in any position? > > I'll even do this when the blinds are around 100 if i have a good stack and I like the > situation. I'll play 10s 9s against a big raise just cause I know if I flop two pair or a > straight/flush draw I'm going to double up. At 50/100, I would have a hard time playing 9 10s against a big raise. Unless the raiser is stealing, it just seems risky. Even if you hit your draw, i.e. 2 of your suit hit the flop, you are still faced with a preflop raiser that can make it costly for you to see the next card. > > Then I start to slow down. I start only playing premium hands and defending my blinds if > I think I can. This is usually when we go from 6-8 players to 4-5. > > I won't start blind stealing until theres four left - the money cutoff line at a single > table is 3 - and then I'll go all in with decent hands (a9 suited and higher, pretty much > any pair) and I'll limp with any tier 1 hand and hope for a big raise to "punish the guy > whose obviously playing small suited connectors hoping for a cheap flop". > > Going all-in in the early stages with anything less that AA when you don't need to isn't > a good idea. The blinds just aren't worth it. > > I would like comments on this style. Since the only times i'm out before the final four > are when AA or KK get cracked by smaller pockets, I'm almost always at the money cutoff, > and with my aggressive play I almost always get 1st, 2nd, or 4th, if I'm unlucky enough to > run into a better ace or higher pair. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, chmurray, 6. Nov 2003 00:01 | ||
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| > Are you playing 96o in any position? I'll limp in MP or LP, even though I play crappy hands early in a tournament, I rarely play anything in EP. > At 50/100, I would have a hard time playing 9 10s against a big raise. Unless the raiser is > stealing, it just seems risky. Even if you hit your draw, i.e. 2 of your suit hit the flop, > you are still faced with a preflop raiser that can make it costly for you to see the next card. Here's a specific example: I'm at about 3200 chips after starting with 1500, and theres only been two out, blinds 50/100. A player that I put to be very strong bets 300 in early position, and I put him on AK, JJ, or TT. Theres a loose crazy player thats been way up in chips but now is down to about 800, and I'm pretty that not only will he call, but he'll bluff the pot all-in if he catches anything (he's already done this a few times). I call with 10s9s, knowing full well I'm way behind, the crazy player calls behind me as expected, and we hit the flop three way, with me first to go. Flop is 10 9 7, and I'm escstatic. My play here, since I'm first to go, is immediately go all in. The crazy player calls, and so does the solid player. Crazy guy turns over J10, and solid player has QQ. Unluckily for me, a Q on the river eliminates me. But the point is, had I won that pot, I'd have been at almost 9k chips, and could've coasted all the way. I'll only make a play like this once or twice a tournament, but it can be really profitable. > > Then I start to slow down. I start only playing premium hands and defending my blinds if > > I think I can. This is usually when we go from 6-8 players to 4-5. > > > > I won't start blind stealing until theres four left - the money cutoff line at a single > > table is 3 - and then I'll go all in with decent hands (a9 suited and higher, pretty much > > any pair) and I'll limp with any tier 1 hand and hope for a big raise to "punish the guy > > whose obviously playing small suited connectors hoping for a cheap flop". > > > > Going all-in in the early stages with anything less that AA when you don't need to isn't > > a good idea. The blinds just aren't worth it. > > > > I would like comments on this style. Since the only times i'm out before the final four > > are when AA or KK get cracked by smaller pockets, I'm almost always at the money cutoff, > > and with my aggressive play I almost always get 1st, 2nd, or 4th, if I'm unlucky enough to > > > run into a better ace or higher pair. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, Dr_Monkey, 6. Nov 2003 04:33 | ||
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| on 6. Nov 2003 00:01 chmurray wrote: > Here's a specific example: I'm at about 3200 chips after starting with 1500, and theres only been Have you tried this strategy on Party? You only start with 800 in chips. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, Schuster, 6. Nov 2003 11:39 | ||
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| This isn't playing profitably, it's gambling with the worst of it that happened to work out for the better. The odds are not there, neither immediate nor implied. This is similar to peeling a card off to try to spike a set. When you hit, you win a big pot. Does that make the play profitable? If you are playing 96o without extreme circumstances, you probably need to take a closer look at your tournament strategy. Lee | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, SmellsLikeVictory, 5. Nov 2003 08:13 | ||
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| #1) With blinds 50/25, I limp with the 99. Risking too much to go all-in here over 175 in chips. A smaller raise just erodes chips if someone calls, overcards come, and someone bets out or check raises you. 99 is too good to lay down. So limp, hope you flop a set, or it gets checked to you and you can take it down on a innocuous flop. Now, if the blinds were 100/50, I'd go all-in. Here, there'd be 350 in the pot after two limpers and you pretty much have to go all-in to get them to laydown. #2) Most often I'd muck that cheese UTG. But it depends somewhat who's in the blinds, how much they have, who's short, etc. But you're not desparte yet and you'd hate a call here, so I'd pass this time. Four handed UTG with a short stack about to get blinded out on the next round, then I'd raise with that every time as the others are likely to be playing very conservatively waiting for shortie to bust. Very situational whether to steal with a hand like QJ shorthanded. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, Bart Mann, 6. Nov 2003 11:16 | ||
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| I play a lot of SNG--probably 30 or more tourneys a week--and I wouldn't have made either of these plays. Not that my statement means anything to you, but hey . . . for what it's worth. Early in a tournament, I won't go all in with ANYTHING--including AA, KK or AK. If the pot is truly "buyable," you'll be able to get it for a heck of a lot less than all of your chips. I don't care if you have THREE aces in your hand (of course this is not possible)--if you go all in early, someone's inevitably going to call with something significantly weaker and outdraw you. Early in a tournament, big pairs make wonderful "hidden" hands to play aggresively post-flop if the flop hits you. When the goal early is survival and not chip accumulation (most SNG players miss this very important point), the basic strategy needs to be changed. All-in with the Nuts only, and never with 5 cards to come. Minimizing your chances of elimination is 10 times as important as maximizing your stack. Just my thoughts on the issue . . . - Bart - | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, palman, 7. Nov 2003 19:04 | ||
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| You're making a huge mistake if you won't go all in with rockets preflop against one other person early. | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, ReMMy, 7. Nov 2003 19:18 | ||
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| I have to agree. You're looking at about a 50% finish in the money rate as a good player. Therefore there is a good chance you aren't going to place in any given trny, having more than double your starting stack puts you in a position to maximize your skills(which are better than most). It also allows you to suffer a bad beat and still be in decent position. I will go all in w/ AA against one opponent early in the trny every time. I will also do it w/ KK if I know the opponent likes to gamble. These are online SnG's, not big tourneys, if you get beat by an inferior hand, fire up a new game... | ||
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| Re: SnG Help, Bart Mann, 10. Nov 2003 06:15 | ||
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| Allow me to clarify my position. My original quote was this: "Early in a tournament, I won't go all in with ANYTHING--including AA, KK or AK. If the pot is truly "buyable," you'll be able to get it for a heck of a lot less than all of your chips." What I meant was, if I was holding AA early in a SNG, I wouldn't simply push the "All In" button and let whatever happens happens. To me, there's no point in throwing T1000 into the pot if your goal is to simply buy it. You could easily do it for a lot less. And if your goal is to make money on your aces, there's no sense in tossing T1000 into the middle and scaring everyone away. Better to toss out a nice raise (maybe T150) and hope to get a caller or two. And if someone bets All In back at you, that's a different story. Call in a heartbeat and take the showdown. Sorry for the confusion. - Bart - | ||
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