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Server Time: 7/30/2010 5:39:01 PM PACIFIC |
 Value betting: What is it?, Aisthesis, 4. Nov 2003 00:33 | ||
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| Barry T's "AK problem" post mentions the concept of value-betting, which I don't think I fully understand. Sure, I'll bet AK sometimes without a match, but the reasons I'll bet it generally boil down to one form or another of buying the pot--with some good outs if someone calls with a weak pair and, if I currently really do have the high hand without a match, to prevent others from drawing a pair on the turn or the river. But I'm obviously missing some aspect of this concept. | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, 4 POKER, 4. Nov 2003 01:18 | ||
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| The River bet : I will bet AK for value when I'm heads up, and when I put my opponent on holding an Ace as well, and when I feel that he will pay me off with just Ace high, (as many opponents do when it's just one more bet to them, and the board "looks" as if it didn't hit your hand as well). When you can read your opponets well, and, how the hand/betting progressed from start to finish, is when the value bet of just AK high alone, can become a profitable bet. It's a good bet when your opponent is reading you for being overly aggresive and he thinks that you may be betting with less than what he's holding - both players holding an Ace with no pair is when AK 'can' get paid off quite frequently in heads up situations. (The "Nut - No Pair" hand). 4P- | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, Aisthesis, 4. Nov 2003 02:30 | ||
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| Hey, thanks yet again for the clear explanation! | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, rdale, 4. Nov 2003 23:08 | ||
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| I define value betting slightly differently, table texture and opponent make the difference in whether or not I make this play. Value betting to me is not letting go of a semibluff lousy pair good kicker, missed flush when someone has a missed flush. Betting especially at the river when you may very well be beat, by opponents that will fold when and if they miss or may have a better pair. Value betting to me is giving them an opportunity to fold, even if they should have stayed because often they will. This works especially well against people that "know" how to play poker and assume you have your hand they missed theirs and in near late position on the river with 3 or less callers when showing that a strong table image. I put it in the semibluff category of playing poker, which is my favorite area of bluffing. It allows you to say stuff like, "I only bluff when I have the best hand and beat A high of a sheriff. There is a good article on it by Mike Caro somewhere in http://poker1.com/mcu/mculib_lectures.asp one of the ones on betting and raising I think. | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, 4 POKER, 5. Nov 2003 02:10 | ||
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| Hi rdale, There's a difference between the bluff bet, the semi-bluff bet, and the value bet, (bet). (The semi-bluff bet is made during the progression of the hand, as you are betting on the 'come' to a strong hand, or you're betting a hand that you know is not the current best, but has many outs in which to improve to be). The word value means that you actually have a hand. But if you are betting AK (for example) on the river, into a player who you "know" has at least a pair, well that would just be a bluff bet, because it wouldn't have any value to it if he paid you off. It may "cause" him to fold, (and that would good, no question).....but it wouldn't change the meaning of the term value bet. A value bet is what is made on the last round of betting, and it's usually done while in heads up play, because when a player is betting for value, it means that his holding is 'good' (and sometimes "good" means just AK with no pair!), but not the nuts by any means - and that's why it's done most frequently while in heads up situations, where the value bet will have more merit behind it, and with a better chance to take down the pot. Now of course, if you're betting top pair during the hands progression, well that is putting in bets for value as well.....but (to me), a true value bet takes place at the river. Let's say the game was 7 card stud. You started with Aces, but you never improved. Your heads up with a player who you are almost positive has started with a pair of Kings. You bet every round and he calls. Doesn't raise you, and you don't "think" that he's improved his hand. Well if you make a bet on the river with your one pair of Aces, then it's a value bet because you are assuming that your hand is still the best and you make the bet because you want to get paid off - because if you check it there.....he may check it right back and you would lose one big bet. You want "value" for your hand. You want to get paid off by a lesser hand. It's made when you presume to hold the best hand - whether it's one big pair in 7 stud, or AK (for example), in hold-em. Again, you make the bet as to not to try and get your opponent to fold on the river, but to call you and to pay you off with a either a weaker Ace (with no pair), or, sometimes with even King high if he puts you on a complete busted draw with less than King high yourself. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, Aisthesis, 5. Nov 2003 02:40 | ||
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| Ah, interesting! Would you also consider the following a value bet on the river: You have AJ, the flop shows JXX. You bet it out and get one caller, who you think might also have the J. If you don't improve on turn and river but also don't think your opponent has either, would betting on the river also be a value bet? | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, 4 POKER, 5. Nov 2003 02:50 | ||
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| Absolutely! (and good question, btw). That is a value bet too. (It's like the hand I described in the 7 card stud scenerio) : You are just about sure that your opponent has a big pair, but yours is bigger. The same would apply in the scenerio that you just gave, except we're using hold-em, and with 'kickers' as the example: Both players have the top pair (that's the hand you 'put him on', etc.)... but you hold the highest kicker. Thus, you bet the river for value - (to get paid off, and/or simply because you know/*think*, you have the best hand here). And this bet *has* to be made on the river, becuase if you 'chicken out' from betting in these situations, you will take away from your long term earn. > "Maximizing" ($) on your winning hands - as to never miss a bet that's a good/correct bet! (And a value bet takes place when you think you hold the best hand against the opponent you are up against -whether it be top pair, a pair of three's, or just Ace high, etc.). There are many players who miss this (correct) opportunity when it comes to *putting* in that last bet because their hand just doesn't 'seem' to be strong enough. Focusing and Reading your players well, will help you to follow through when it comes to making that last bet for "value" purposes! ($$$)!! 4P- | ||
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| Re: Value betting: What is it?, mkpoker, 5. Nov 2003 08:42 | ||
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| In my mind, value betting means simply "betting when you're reasonably confident you have the best cards and want to maximize the value of your hand." Betting for value is probably the most common reason to bet and can occur at all stages of the game--not just the river, IMO. For example, if you hold AK and the flop comes A83 and you lead out, your bet is a "value bet." In Barry's example of the AK scenario, he was saying that you can't really make a value bet with AK in that situation, because you can't determine with reasonable certainty that your hand is ahead. However, he and 4Poker noted, there are some situations where you can make that determination, and therefore a value bet would be appropriate. In the situation you described (holding top-pair top-kicker with AJ when you believe an opponent has J + low-kicker), betting the river would most definitely be a "value bet." | ||
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