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Server Time: 10/12/2008 4:42:20 AM PACIFIC |
 low limit questions..., chmurray, 3. Nov 2003 19:28 | ||
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| Been playing about five months now, have no delusions of grandeur but I definitely feel like I'm improving. Since I'm a poor college student, I bought in for $50 at pokerstars and pretty much stay around $50-100, while I try different strategies/games (pot-limit omaha high/low can be wild). I enjoy playing hold 'em the most though, and playing limit vs. no-limit keeps my mistakes (as well as bad beats) cheap enough that I can break even / show a small profit. But I do have questions: Example - Flop K 8 2. I have AA, but 22 hits their set. Since I'm the only pre-flop raiser, the 22 betting into me and re-raising my raise tells me I'm probably beat. However, since I don't know someones hit their set, I think could just as easily be up against AK, KQ, or something else (On an earlier pot, I limped/called a raise with AQ offsuit, and assumed I'd lost when preflop raiser three-bet the A 7 3 flop - but check-calling revealed A10) . I can't see myself folding AA though, should I be? I know preflop AA is the 4.5 to 1 favorite over any other pair. Should I just try to steamroll this through and check-call if I'm played back at? This might be a problem for me - If I think I have a very strong hand for the board (like the AQ situation) I'm going check-call it down just to see if I'm right. Another general observation. Since I'm playing at low limits - .05/.10 - Raising preflop with anything less than AA or KK seems almost pointless. You're not going to thin out the pot anyway and if you miss with AK (I'm losing most of my money on AK, btw) betting when its checked to the raiser again has no effect. Basically, my strategy is to be prepared to show the winning hand, every time. This is why I liked my limp with AQ earlier - A10 felt strong enough to raise, and even reraise me. Bascially, I'm saying that my raise preflop does not mean in any way to the other players that I have a claim on the pot. I have to hit it to win, so limping and outplaying from the flop on seems the only way to play. Also (I know this is alot) how many players does there need to be in a capped pot for me to enter with a marginal hand when I know that they don't have the goods? Example - Capped pot 5 way to me and I have K10 suited in the BB. Since I'm 95% sure there isn't AA KK QQ or JJ out there and there are so many callers, I figure what the hell. I ended up losing - flop came K Q 10, I'm first to go, bet, and KQ check calls all the way down. I don't mind the KQ play, since I could have had AJ, and I probably should have checked the turn after the KQ call, since he'd probably check also unless he had AJ or trips. But I still would like to know what you guys think about playing decent hands in a huge capped pot. | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., shorn, 4. Nov 2003 06:23 | ||
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| I don't necessarily agree that limiting yourself to raises for AA and KK only is the way to go. In these loosey goosey games, your position is the most important factor in whether you raise or not. Certainly, after a lot of limpers, raising with AK is a losing proposition because you are giving implied odds for folks to chase. However, UTG, you MUST raise in these games just on the plain fact that you might get 1 or 2 players to fold. Similarly, hands like 66-TT are most likely limping hands in EP; on the button with 4 or more callers, they turn in to raising hands pre-flop. The idea being that you build a big pot so that your win rate is higher when you do flop a set and potentially you can get a free card if the flop misses everyone giving you a small extra chance to hit a set on the turn. The key to these games is the types of hads you play more than anything. Big, unsuited cards go down in value and small pairs and suited connectors go way up in value. In order to maximize your win in these games, you need to raise some of these hands pre-flop so that when you do hit, you win a big pot. Also, these are the types of games where you need to fold those unsuited big cards when they miss the flop. Conversely, since you will be getting good odds on the lop a lot of the time, calling with gutshot str8's (to the nuts) become much more profitable because even if you aren't getting 11-1 currently from the pot, you know that these types of players will pay you off when you do hit. So, you can call with these hands getting as little as 7-1 or so. There is no doubt that these types of games can be frustrating and will likely produce big wins and big losses. The key though is to limit your losses wherever you can, but more importantly, takre advantage of tactical raising so that you can maximize your big wins when the deck is running you over. Hope this helps. Steve | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., MA's Dad, 4. Nov 2003 09:44 | ||
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| I am at about the same level as Aisthesis with about the same bankroll, but I am playing .25/.50 and have run into the exact same frustrations with my big cards getting beaten consistently by QXo, 86o, and the like. It tries my patience beyond belief seeing people you know are playing poor poke for an hour or two. They are in every pot, build them up and then win one now and again to recoup losses and then make profits. Then, you have to fold to their craziness because the one or two times you are in with them they have AKs. Anyway, I know this is common in these low, low limit games and for some reason I never thought to play the suited connectors stronger than the big cards. The average winning hand is a straight with many people in, right? Thanks for the advice shorn. Aisthesis - I feel your pain. I just want to play poker not wrestle with maniacs for a few hours! I play on Pokerstars too and I get a lot more out of and enjoy the $5.00 + $.50 9-seat Sit n Go tourneys. There are nuts there as well, but it evens out a bit more over the 100+ hands in the tourney. | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., Mark Barnett II, 4. Nov 2003 11:30 | ||
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| try doing it in RL sometime, was playing stud with this guy who was totally insane *staying in long after he should have been out* but everytime i bumped into him he had a hand. the kind of game you are describing is why people suggest large bankrolls and talk about large variance, the short term luck factor *and this can involve 100's of hands* can be huge. the correct way to battle tables like this is, know that you are only playing hands that have positive expectation in that particular circumstance, only play when you feel good about yourself and your game. silly example but hope it makes the point we are playing a game of heads or tails *totally fair coin and no chance of landing on edge* you always guess which if you guess right i give you 2 dollars you guess wrong you give me 1 oh darn you have guessed wrong the last 100 times, you want to quit or keep playing? you have the edge but you have lost due to short term luck and are probably frustated as hell having lost so many in a row but you know you have the edge by a large margin. Rule #1 of Poker Circumstances alter cases Rule #2 NEVER forget rule #1 | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., chmurray, 4. Nov 2003 19:31 | ||
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| on 4. Nov 2003 06:23 shorn wrote: > I don't necessarily agree that limiting yourself to raises for AA and KK only is the > way to go. In these loosey goosey games, your position is the most important factor > in whether you raise or not. Certainly, after a lot of limpers, raising with AK is a > losing proposition because you are giving implied odds for folks to chase. However, > UTG, you MUST raise in these games just on the plain fact that you might get 1 or 2 > players to fold. Similarly, hands like 66-TT are most likely limping hands in EP; on > the button with 4 or more callers, they turn in to raising hands pre-flop. The idea > being that you build a big pot so that your win rate is higher when you do flop a set > and potentially you can get a free card if the flop misses everyone giving you a > small extra chance to hit a set on the turn. > > The key to these games is the types of hads you play more than anything. Big, > unsuited cards go down in value and small pairs and suited connectors go way up in > value. In order to maximize your win in these games, you need to raise some of these > hands pre-flop so that when you do hit, you win a big pot. > > Also, these are the types of games where you need to fold those unsuited big cards > when they miss the flop. Conversely, since you will be getting good odds on the lop > a lot of the time, calling with gutshot str8's (to the nuts) become much more > profitable because even if you aren't getting 11-1 currently from the pot, you know > that these types of players will pay you off when you do hit. So, you can call with > these hands getting as little as 7-1 or so. > > There is no doubt that these types of games can be frustrating and will likely > produce big wins and big losses. The key though is to limit your losses wherever you > can, but more importantly, takre advantage of tactical raising so that you can > maximize your big wins when the deck is running you over. > > Hope this helps. > > Steve Thanks alot for the reply. I've basically only been raising with AQ or higher, but since I've been noticing that hitting a set with a small pair pays off huge at this level by top pair, I think I'll start raising once in awhile if I like the pot size. I'll try to work the small suited connectors in, but I'm having a little bit of trouble adapting them to limit. In no limit if I flop a draw then I'll only play it if I'm the first bettor - I won't call, I'll occasionally re-raise. When I'm playing a draw I want the table checking to me if I can so I have a shot at it if I miss but I think I can bluff it. This isn't going to happen in limit. Any advice? | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., shorn, 5. Nov 2003 05:51 | ||
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| My advice would be to work these hands into your arsenal in late middle position and late position and then if you flop a draw, treat your best play as a mathematical exercise. If someone bets out and the odds are there to call do so; if not, then dump. If you are drawing to the nut str8 and ytou are getting better than proper odds to draw then throw in a flop raise as well and maybe they will check to you on the turn. If they don't, re-evaluate the pot odds and go from there. That is why it is so important to have position with these hands as they generally aren't strong enough (in limit where you can't necessarily force someone to fold a better hand as you can in NL) to be proactive with...you want to be able to be reactive with these hands because it is much easier to determine your most profitable play. | ||
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| Re: low limit questions..., Caldazar, 4. Nov 2003 16:14 | ||
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| on 3. Nov 2003 19:28 chmurray wrote > Example - Flop K 8 2. I have AA, but 22 hits their set. Since I'm the only > pre-flop raiser, the 22 betting into me and re-raising my raise tells me I'm > probably beat. However, since I don't know someones hit their set, I think > could just as easily be up against AK, KQ, or something else (On an earlier pot, > I limped/called a raise with AQ offsuit, and assumed I'd lost when preflop > raiser three-bet the A 7 3 flop - but check-calling revealed A10) . I can't see > myself folding AA though, should I be? I know preflop AA is the 4.5 to 1 > favorite over any other pair. Should I just try to steamroll this through and > check-call if I'm played back at? I'll assume that you're in an early position here and give how I'd handle things (for better or worse). I don't think you can fold this yet, but you certainly can't check-call. When you have a playable hand, check-calling all the way to the showdown is usually a sure path to defeat in the long run (check-calling does have its place, but not here). You need more information, so re-raise to three bets. Now you'll need to know what type of player your opponent is so you can interpret his reaction to your raise. If he reraises to four bets, I'd consider folding unless he's the type of player that would bet anything, he probably has a set (he could have two pair if he were playing K8s, but having a pocket pair is more likely, and either way, you're beat). If he calls your raise on the flop, and assuming the turn comes up blank, check. If he checks too, I'd put him on a king pair and bet the river assuming the river card was a blank. If he bets after the check, I'd fold. | ||
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