|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:36:41 PM PACIFIC |
 A Standard AK Problem, Barry T, 3. Nov 2003 17:00 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. You hold AKo in late middle position in limit hold'em. A somewhat loose raiser (but not a maniac by any means) raises in early middle position. You re-raise and get heads up. The flop misses you: Flop 1: J 6 3 Flop 2: 8 6 3 (we will assume suits have no relevance ehre). He checks the flop and you bet. and he calls. The turn is a 9. What is your general plan: A - Bet the turn and check the river if no A or K comes. B - Bet the turn and bet the river regardless. C - Check the turn and call the river if he bets (and check otherwise). D - Check the turn and fold if he bets (assuming no A or K). E - Other. Do you play differently if it is Flop 1 or Flop 2? Do you play differently if you have AQ insteadof AK? Thanks. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Mark, 3. Nov 2003 17:15 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi Barry Against a loose aggressive player, i bet the flop and turn, and would generally check or call the river. I would fold the river if a Q or ten falls and he leads into me. Against players who would bet or raise any pair i would bet the river also. Especially if they are capable of calling one last bet with an ace high type of hand. Mark > Hi. You hold AKo in late middle position in limit hold'em. A somewhat loose > raiser (but not a maniac by any means) raises in early middle position. You > re-raise and get heads up. The flop misses you: > Flop 1: J 6 3 > Flop 2: 8 6 3 (we will assume suits have no relevance ehre). > > He checks the flop and you bet. and he calls. The turn is a 9. > > What is your general plan: > > A - Bet the turn and check the river if no A or K comes. > B - Bet the turn and bet the river regardless. > C - Check the turn and call the river if he bets (and check otherwise). > D - Check the turn and fold if he bets (assuming no A or K). > E - Other. > > Do you play differently if it is Flop 1 or Flop 2? > > Do you play differently if you have AQ insteadof AK? > > Thanks. > > BarryT > > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Aisthesis, 3. Nov 2003 17:30 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm probably missing some obvious point here, but I'd like to base my decision on more info if possible: 1) What's your current table image? tight-aggressive? 2) Is there any pattern to what the loose raiser seems to be raising on? My pre-flop intuition as to his holdings would be mid-level, possibly even low pair, but then he checked to you on the flop, and no checkraise, as one might expect with a set... 3) How does this guy bet winning hands? Does he like to slow-bet or check-raise? 4) How long will he call with a losing hand, and what kind of draw does he need to call? A lot of information, I know, but without it, I'd be somewhat hard-pressed to say. Before putting any more into the pot, I'd at least like to know whether he already has a pair and whether (on flop 1) the possibility that you have something like AJ or JJ might have him running scared (hence how much it will take to get him to fold even if he does have the pair). | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Barry T, 3. Nov 2003 18:34 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. Those are all good things to know. There are probably many more things we would like to know. WIll he lay down a pair of queens to a three-bet onthe turn/river, for example? But the question is what do you do in the general case, where you do not know those things. Refuse to sit in the game? Muck AK until you know the players better? Haven't you ever played in a strange town (or a game with strangers online) where you just had to make a decision? This is that type of question; BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Aisthesis, 3. Nov 2003 20:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| ok, ok, sorry! Yes, I am playing unfamiliar players all the time. At the moment, my obsession is trying to get a detailed read on everybody, hence my warped and unhelpful answer. But one thing I would like to keep there: If you do already know this guy is a somewhat loose raiser, you should also have at least some idea of how he is perceiving you at the time--could be very helpful if in point of fact you're trying to buy the hand. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Snorbolus, 3. Nov 2003 17:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| My feeling is that you are likely to have the best hand in this spot around about as often as you do not. I think the way to go has a lot to do with how this opponent likes to play heads up when (a) the flop hits him and (b) when it does not. Also how he thinks that you play in those situations. In general though I like the bet the turn, check the river plan best as this gives him an extra chance to fold. I might well fold if he leads out on the turn though. I don't like the check the turn, fold to a bet on the river plan, against most players. I feel that checking the turn will often induce a bluff from a worse hand and that it can't be good poker to induce a bluff and then let it succeed. If you have AQ instead then you have to add AK to the list of hands that are beating you. I might well go with the check, fold plan in this case unless I thought my opponent was really likely to lay down a pair or worse to a bet. Again I much perefer betting the turn to the river. I am not too confident of my play in this type of spot. Very interested to read other replys. Snorbolus on 3. Nov 2003 17:00 Barry T wrote: > Hi. You hold AKo in late middle position in limit hold'em. A somewhat loose > raiser (but not a maniac by any means) raises in early middle position. You > re-raise and get heads up. The flop misses you: > Flop 1: J 6 3 > Flop 2: 8 6 3 (we will assume suits have no relevance ehre). > > He checks the flop and you bet. and he calls. The turn is a 9. > > What is your general plan: > > A - Bet the turn and check the river if no A or K comes. > B - Bet the turn and bet the river regardless. > C - Check the turn and call the river if he bets (and check otherwise). > D - Check the turn and fold if he bets (assuming no A or K). > E - Other. > > Do you play differently if it is Flop 1 or Flop 2? > > Do you play differently if you have AQ insteadof AK? > > Thanks. > > BarryT > > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Snorbolus, 3. Nov 2003 17:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Oh yes, I prefer the flop with no J because AJ, KJs, QJ, JTs are all loosing to me on the turn. Snorbolus | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Schuster, 3. Nov 2003 17:52 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey Barry. It depends! With a 3 bet before the flop, an overpair has to at least cross his mind. If this opponent is capable of checkraising as a semibluff even though I might have an overpair, it makes playing the second flop tougher, but I'll get to that in a second. With the first flop, I would bet the turn and check / call the river against most opponents, although value betting if another blank falls might not be a bad idea if the opponent will pay off with an ace high type of hand. AK high has a good chance of being good in that spot and I would not want to give any free cards on the turn. With the second flop, the jack is a little scary, but the opponent could very well be holding AQ, KQ, AT, maybe as bad as A9, KT, QT. When the 9 hits, it's very possible he picked up a gutshot to go with his "overcards" and will probably want to see the river, if he doesn't already have you beat. This is why if he is capable of checkraising as a semibluff, I will be much less inclined to bet, even though a free card is more likely to hurt my hand. If a blank falls on the river, I will definately call a bet. If he leads the river after a Q or a T, I may call or I may not, depending on what I think of my opponent. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Schuster, 3. Nov 2003 19:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I should add that if I have not seen him as capable of checkraising as a semibluff so far, I will go ahead and bet the turn on the second flop, continuing to represent my overpair. If he checkraises me, then I let it go and maybe folded the best hand, but that's the way poker goes. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Allyc, 3. Nov 2003 18:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| If he called a reraise and called on the flop, I can't believe a loose player would fold to a 9 on the turn. You at least get called and maybe check raised on both flops. AK is the hand he's most likely hoping you hold. If he holds a jack he'll checkraise flop1. With 3 parts to a straight on flop2, he could checkraise with a ten or medium pair. I'd check the turn both times and call a blank on river. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, mkpoker, 3. Nov 2003 21:33 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I would bet, but first, I'd try to get a sense of what my opponent might have. He's a loose raiser, but he's not crazy--and he's way out of position on this hand. Because of position, I doubt he'd open-raise with a small or low-middle pair--he needs volume for those hands Also, once heads-up pre-flop, I suspect he would have capped the betting with AA, KK, or QQ. So if he has a pair, it's probably something like 88-JJ. I'd guess it's most likely he holds any two face cards, anything from AK to JTs. Those are the kinds of cards loose raisers might open-raise with. I realize it's a huge assumption, but if we assume that he either has AK, AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, 88, 99, TT, or JJ, it's basically even money that you're ahead (for flop 1). So it's a close call between betting and checking, but there are two factors that would lead me to a bet on the turn. First, if he holds something like TT, that Jack is a major scare card for him. Granted, he called your flop bet, but a second bet on the turn might induce him to throw away a mediocre hand that's currently ahead (like 99, TT, or JT, for example). Second, remember that you most likely have 6 good outs left. Clearly not enough to draw to, but enough of a contingency plan to tilt a close decision between betting and checking toward a bet. It's not at all implausible that you could bet, be called, and be blessed with an A on the river to beat a hand like QJ. So yes, I'd bet the turn. If he calls and a Q or T hits the river and he leads out, I'd figure I'm probably beat and it would be a very close decision between a fold a crying call. Any other card and I'd definitely check /call the river. I know you're a big "bet the river" advocate and I suspect you'll probably disagree, [as an aside, I've been betting the river with greater frequency as a result of your posts, and it has been a profitable move, thx] So why check here? I'd check basically because it's tough to imagine what worse hand he'd call with at this point. If he has a pair and he's called your bets on the flop and turn, he's not going to fold when a blank hits the river. And obviously, you've no further chances to improve since the river card is now out. So now that the two extra factors that pushed me to bet the turn are out of play, I'd check. For flop 2, I'd play the same way on the turn...not as close a decision, I think. It's less likely you're behind, and it's possible (though unlikely) that he's on a straight draw with hand like T9. Can't let him draw out for free! On the river for flop 2, I think I'd make a crying call regardless of the card that hits. A Q or J would disturb me greatly, but not enough to throw my hand away. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Barry T, 3. Nov 2003 23:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi, MK: I think this is well thought out. For the reasons you listed, in general, you should bet the turn and check the river. Case 2 being more obvious. When your opponent has a pair, this will cost you a bet quite often, but you get that back when your opponent has AQ (AJ in case 2) and calls the turn bet. (Or some other kind of draw. like KQ) With the J out there, it is tempting to check on the turn, but I still bet it there (though I hate the 9. If it were a ten, I would be more likely to check the turn). I am big on betting the river, but I am not crazy. Unless my opponent thinks I am wild (which can happen), betting AK for value in this situation is a losers game. (There are different times when betting AK for value works weil though.) BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, csi, 4. Nov 2003 09:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| You should always bet the turn here except for maybe if your opponent is an aggressive creative player , but even then I lean towards betting. Because if you get checked raised you will have to dump the hand. Then if you don't hit on the river you pretty much should check if it's checked to you , or call if bet into because a lot of players will bluff on the river hoping you will fold your Ace high. Also, I've noticed in a heads up situation an opponent almost never folds when he holds even the smallest pair because he is hoping that you have Ace high so he will call you down. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Standard AK Problem, Formless, 4. Nov 2003 03:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'd choose plan A. I think AK is in much better shape on the second flop in the situation you described, and this is a good example of how a seemingly small change in the board can make a big difference. With the raising parameters you described, and I would put that at around A9o-44-JTo-T9s-A5s (he'd limp with smaller hands here so we remove them, but I've added Random Bezerko Factor by adding a random crap hand), I think you're small dog in flop 1 and a small favourite in flop 2, pot-equity hot-and-cold-wise. That jack makes a bigger difference than I thought. Of course that doesn't take into account your opponent's check-call on the flop, nor action to occur. In either case, I don't care whether I am a small favourite or a small dog, I want to win the damn pot, and I've got position and two big cards. No free cards. My general plan is to bet the turn and check the river if no A/K. on 3. Nov 2003 17:00 Barry T wrote: > Hi. You hold AKo in late middle position in limit hold'em. A somewhat loose > raiser (but not a maniac by any means) raises in early middle position. You > re-raise and get heads up. The flop misses you: > Flop 1: J 6 3 > Flop 2: 8 6 3 (we will assume suits have no relevance ehre). > > He checks the flop and you bet. and he calls. The turn is a 9. > > What is your general plan: > > A - Bet the turn and check the river if no A or K comes. > B - Bet the turn and bet the river regardless. > C - Check the turn and call the river if he bets (and check otherwise). > D - Check the turn and fold if he bets (assuming no A or K). > E - Other. > > Do you play differently if it is Flop 1 or Flop 2? > > Do you play differently if you have AQ insteadof AK? > > Thanks. > > BarryT > > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|