|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 9/5/2008 1:57:57 AM PACIFIC |
 A Monster Played Too Slowly?, mkpoker, 2. Nov 2003 18:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Playing 4/8 at the Bellagio this weekend, I was dealt AA in MP (the 2nd time I received AA; I mucked it earlier when a 4-flush hit the board). Two limpers to me. I raise. Button calls, blinds fold, early limpers call. The button seemed like a pretty tight player, but I noticed that he always played when on the button. I couldn't say for sure, but I thought it was possible he over-valued position and would play on the button with weak hands. The flop comes A82 rainbow, giving me top set, and putting only the flimsiest of straight draws on the board. 2 checks to me. I check. Button bets, limpers call. I call also, figuring I'll wait until the turn to pop it (a mistake?) The turn is a blank (I don't remember what). Two checks to me. I bet out (mistake #2?) hoping to spark some action. Button calls, both limpers fold. The river comes 8, giving me aces-full. I check (mistake #3?), hoping to induce the button to act. He checks also and my biggest hand of the trip wins one of my smaller pots. What do you think of my play here...and how do you think I might have been able to wring more money from this pot? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, Ian J, 2. Nov 2003 19:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I definitely agree with the play on the flop. On the turn, I think I would have checked considering the button bet the flop when checked to, I'd figure he'd do the same on the turn. Not only does that allow you for a 2 bet turn, it's possible that one or both of the EPs would call the button's position bet. On the river, you have to bet out because the button has in no way signified that his hand is extremely strong so you can't even be 75% sure he'll bet. However, you can't control that nobody had a strong enough hand to get you alot of action, so there's nothing you could do from that standpoint. Just my thoughts. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, Mark, 2. Nov 2003 19:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi mkpoker i would have played the hand diferently. On the flop you are expected to bet, being the pre-flop raiser, and I would have made the bet. You probably would have been called in a few spots, maybe even raised by the button. Checking the flop is not a bad play at all, especially if the button is aggressive. with an aggressive button, i would check most of my strong hands and trap the ep players for multiple bets. Once you check the flop, why lead at the turn when a blank falls? You're set up to check raise the button, possibly trapping the ep callers for two bets. I think you blew the hand here. If you didn't trust the button to bet the turn, why bother slow playing at all? You didn't trust the button to bet on the turn, but now you do on the river? After betting the turn, you have to lead at the river. You started to slowplay the hand on the flop, but gave up the play on the turn. This doesn't make sense. You should have either lead at every street and hope to get called ( a good play agaisnt loose passive players - calling stations) or checked the flop and check-raised the turn against an aggressive button. The way you played the hand, you got 1 BB between the turn and river. However, If you followed through with your slowplaying and check raised the turn, you may have gotten 3 or 4 Big bets on the turn and 1 more on the river. By leading into every street agaisnt calling stations, you probably would have made 2 or 3 BB by the river. just my 2 cents Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, MozMan, 2. Nov 2003 20:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| mk- In LL games, I find it is almost always more profitable to play any hand under quads fast. With this hand, I would probably have bet at it the whole way. In these games, people tend to believe me less often when I bet at pots like that, and I get more callers. Strategy is so often lost on LL players that it can be costly. Here's how I might have played it: bet the flop, and probably get four calls. If anyone raises, then pump it with reraises while the opportunity is there. If there are no raises, and we are four going to the turn, and that blank hits, I bet again. They expect it, and I'm not going to disappoint. Then, the river comes and pairs the board, this is where I might try to check-raise, because now they all have me on top pair and it looks like I'm afraid of trip 8s when I check. -Moz "Did you exchange a walk-on part in a war for the lead-role in a cage?" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, 4 POKER, 2. Nov 2003 20:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I agree with Moz here, and why he would play it in that manner - but I don't agree that going for a check-raise on the river is the best option here. One: the two limpers: (if they're still in there at that point), it would have to mean that they checked it to you, in order for you to check it, too! And there's only one player now that could possibly bet it for you - and in this particular situation with the Ace being out there and knowing that mk has the other two.....it's not a close enough assumption that the button would take the bait here, so I would continue with the flow and lead at the river as well . Maybe they'll fold but maybe they'll call you with a pocket pair, or perhaps the button might raise if he rivered trip eights. You can't extract a bet from someone by not betting, and the check-raise play only works if you are just about positive that someone will bet it for you. And with only one player who could do that for me, I would take the lead and just hope that I got paid off. However, mk did check the flop, and if you're going to check it, then I would have figured, that somewhere you would have check-raised it - either on the flop or on the turn. That's why I like to lead at it all the way - especially in this situation with non-aggressive types. Unless somebody caught a good piece of that board (which is so unlikely here), or they were the type who is a known bluffer, I really don't think they're going to take it upon themselves to bet it for you, but they might call you to try and spike a pair along the way if they didn't put you on holding an Ace. 4P- | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, MozMan, 2. Nov 2003 20:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| A good point, I hadn't even considered the other limpers on the river. Of course, you are absolutely right. The other point that you made better than me is about the texture of the board. In a situation like this, you have crippled the deck, and there is very little anyone can have to entice them to put money in the pot for you. When you fill up, it's much better to have str8 and flush possibilities out there. Then, with a four way pot, there is a better chance that someone caught a really good second-best. -Moz "Did you exchange a walk-on part in a war for the lead-role in a cage?" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, 4 POKER, 2. Nov 2003 20:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| ( Well in this hand, the two limpers in front of mk, actually weren't involved on the river - so it would still leave him to be in first position, and in a heads up play - so I would figure that a bet would be necessary, too, because mk still showed some interest along the way - and to check it here, it's just too likely that he'll check it back:) And I hear ya Moz - It's so great when you make the nut full house with a straight or a flush out there, and you just *hope* that someone plays back at you! (btw, You made valid points too Moz - I just followed them up with some of my own thoughts, that's all :) Dave | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, csi, 2. Nov 2003 21:21 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| From my experience playing middle limit, generally when a pre-flop raiser checks the flop it usually means a strong hand and he is checking for a play because most players automatically bet the flop when they've raised preflop ( especially when an Ace hits ). Therefore, if it was me on the button I would be a little suspicious and unless I had a big hand I'm not going to step out and bet the turn because I would be fearing a check-raise. ( And if the button had a big hand he would probably raise you anyway when you lead into him to see where your at) So, having said that, I would have raised after you checked the flop because you had everyone trapped. Then I would have lead the turn and river. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, LJH, 3. Nov 2003 14:18 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| MKPOKER, TO WHAT PURPOSE WAS THE SLOW PLAY. YOU HAD TO BET AND KEEP BETTING FROM THE FLOP ON. ONCE ALL CHECKED AFTER THE FLOP YOU HAD NO CHANCE OF MAKING ANY MONEY IN THE HAND. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, backtoanalog, 3. Nov 2003 15:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I'm not an expert but I would have played it like Moz. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, mroban, 3. Nov 2003 15:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think you were right to slow play here. Why didn't you also check the turn to the button? He probably would have gone for a steal raise there (he did bet the flop). Perfect trap (IMHO). The early limpers might have thought he was steal raising and might have called (I have even seen a check raises in these spots when players suspect a steal raise). I think that was your spot. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, mkpoker, 3. Nov 2003 16:19 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| No doubt...I played this badly. As I was playing, I KNEW I was playing it badly. A couple of posters asked why I played as I did. I'm happy to share, even though my rationale is pretty bad. The truth is, I almost never slowplay...because hands where a slowplay is correct are so rare. I do think a slowplay was justified in this case (having flopped a set of aces with no reasonable draws on the board), but my inexperience at making the play botched it. 1. Why check/call the flop? After my pre-flop raise, I was afraid that if I led out on the flop, people would assume I held AK, AQ, or AA and would get out of the way. By checking, I hoped to convince people I held a high pair and got spooked by the ace. I called because I wanted to delay raising until the turn. 2. Why bet the turn? The truth is...I got afraid I'd get no action at all on the hand. After two checks to me, I was afraid it would be checked around. This was stupid. Once I decided to slowplay, I should have stuck with the program. 3. Why check the river? Again, just plain bad play. I thought my one remaining opponent would fold to a bet, so I checked, hoping to induce a bluff, which I could raise. A big mistake. Once I decided to abandon the slowplay, I should have kept betting and hoped for a crying call. The bottom line is that I decided to play slowly, then changed my mind (on the turn) and then changed it back again (on the river). That's just bad play and it definitely cost me 1BB and probably 2-3. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: A Monster Played Too Slowly?, Barry T, 3. Nov 2003 16:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi. It is nice to review yurplay and learn from it. In general, when you have that wierd feeling that you are playing badly, you are. My own personal way to play this hand is bet, bet, bet like Moz. (Play big hands like big hands...) The river card is nice in that if someone has a an 8, they will rasie you. And that is a good thing. BarryT | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|