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Server Time: 11/23/2008 4:58:48 AM PACIFIC |
 Critique of play requested, Caldazar, 2. Nov 2003 00:47 | ||
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| I recently played out a hand where I think my play was rather poor and I'm curious as to how other people would have approached things. Low-limit hold 'em, typical loose-passive table, very little bluffing, little check raising, players betting their hands as soon as they hit them and not raising on their draws, most people checking and calling to the river so long as there isn't too much action, 10 players. I'm on the button and get dealt 6d,6s. Three players call to me, I call, SB completes, BB checks. The flop comes 6c,8h,5h. SB opens, BB calls, Player 1 raises, fold, fold, I raise to three bets, SB calls, BB folds, and Player 1 calls. Three handed, the turn comes 8d. SB bets, Player 1 raises, I call, SB calls. River comes 4d. SB bets, Player 1 raises, I call, SB calls for a three-way showdown. 1. Is calling with a 66 on the button and three callers in ahead of me too loose, even for a loose game where I'm on the button? I felt that with the SB likely to complete and the game being six-handed, the implied odds justified trying to flop a set (and of course getting out if I didn't and there was action). 2. Is my raise on the flop asking for trouble? After all, there are potential straight/straight-draws, flush draws, a higher set possibility, and three opponents showing some strength (well, maybe the BB was just check/calling to see more cards and not really on a straight or flush draw, but the other two...). Not to mention that these guys will play with almost any two cards pre-flop, so them holding a bunch of smaller cards is a very real possibility. 3. After the turn, with 6c,8h,5h, 8d on the board, I felt my call was wrong and I should have either been raising or folding. Thoughts? 4. Same basic feeling on the river. With the board 6c,8h,5h, 8d, 4d, I felt I should have been either raising or folding. Comments are welcomed, and thanks in advance. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, Angel, 2. Nov 2003 01:28 | ||
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| Caldazar, 1. Calling pre-flop was correct and not loose at all under any game conditions. Under the loose-passive game conditions you described, implied odds go up and this makes the call even more correct. You said there were three callers in before you but the BB had already called too - with you that made the 5-handed that you want to see the flop. It is likely the SB will call and if not you have the added equity of his dead money. 2. There are a number of reasons to raise. One of them is to gain information. That by itself is certainly enough of a reason to raise but it was also likely that you held the best hand at the moment. You can only be beat by a 74, 97 or 88 - I like your chances. The fact that they would play any two cards is not an indication that they have those two cards. Even if someone has 88 or 74 it is possible that your raise will slow them down on the turn (ok - unlikely but I raise in a low limit loose passive game in this situation as close to 100% as I make any poker decision. 3. I agree and I would have raised. 4. This would depend on what result your raise had on the previous round (had you raised) and what you know about your opponents. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, KevinK, 2. Nov 2003 02:03 | ||
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| What we have is a no fold'em game. If people limped in, you could have raised and gotten a little more money had you bet since the limpers had money in the pot anyway. The blinds may have stayed in if your bet didn't get reraised(some players like to engage in what I call pissing contests where its a matter of who can outraise who until its capped). On the flop, you want to keep people in the pot as best you can. If people are on straight or flush draws, you want to bet enough to punish them yet not screw you should the straight or flush draw hit. The turn had an 8 you say. Unless logic or poker rules tell me otherwise, you had a full house with no straight or flush beating you out. Not many people both have hands like that though I have been screwed before and you were right to think that they could be beat. I think the call you made was a smart move on your part though. You had someone betting out, doing all the work for you this time . If you had reraised, they might have folded before the river. When the river hit, I can figure that someone may have finally hit their straight or trying to bluff you out of the pot. The call wasn't a bad move here either. By calling, you ensured that they stayed in the pot. As far as a reraise goes, you might have not gotten called unless they had that straight themselves or had and 8 full of ++++ boat. Overall, it wasn't really that poor playing, you just stringed them along while protecting yourself from possibly higher sets. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, Caldazar, 2. Nov 2003 03:44 | ||
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| Thanks for the responses. I guess part of the reason for my confusion was that after my flop-raise, I was expecting check-check or check-bet to me on the turn in true passive-table form After the 8 came, I was ready to raise in either case. But then bet-raise came, and now I felt it more likely that one of my opponents had a full house with me or even quads. So I just called, thinking that the SB would raise if he had a full house and just call with a straight (I had him pegged as a passive player that didn't like big raising wars). River card and then a bet by the SB, reinforcing my belief that he had a straight and was making sure another pair wouldn't pop up and further degrade his chances of winning (from his perspective). I guess in retrospect I really should have raised on the turn to give both players an opportunity to reraise me, though. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, kennycatkiller, 3. Nov 2003 22:52 | ||
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| Nothing wrong with calling on the button with multi-way action to see if you make a set, which you were lucky enough to do. I like the raise on the flop, despite the straight possibility (you could still catch the full-house and punish any straight) Now, on the turn, when you make the under-full, you should be raising. If someone has 8's full, well, have a nice day--he/she will let you know. If anyone stays for the river, you simply have to bet or raise. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, McMonkey, 5. Nov 2003 07:12 | ||
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| So let me get this straight: you have a full house and you're thinking of folding? You said people were betting when they made their hands (ie not very tricky players). If someone had made trip 8's on the flop don't you think they would have capped? Even 2 pair they might have put in the 4th bet. When the turn makes your boat, the only reason not to raise is to keep people in so they'll put a river bet in, but once the river hits you have to raise. You're on the button, everybody who's going to put in a bet has, you raise and they either put in an extra bet or they don't. If you're beat by a bigger full house (unlikely) then so be it, but for the majority of times that you will win this hand you need to give them the opportunity to throw more money in the pot. | ||
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| Re: Critique of play requested, Brian Starr, 21. Nov 2003 03:52 | ||
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| You can't always be afraid of the nuts. How could you possibly be thinking of folding a full house? It is clear that you should have raised on both the turn and river, it is far more likely that your opponents are betting straights or trip 8s than boats. The one playing passively at this table is you. I can just imagine your stunned opponent's reaction to seeing a full house go unraised, I have had that so many times on those 1-2 or 2-4 tables. Passive opponents calling with the second or third nut. Right when you think the pot is yours, the caller turns over an unraised monster, lol. | ||
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