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Server Time: 11/23/2008 4:06:01 AM PACIFIC |
 When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 02:09 | ||
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| Of late I've been fairly liberal in staying in on SB unraised, but looking at the data in my incipient poker database (only around 1200 right now), my biggest positional loser is SB. So, while the data is no doubt somewhat inconclusive, at least it's a good reason to suspect I'm playing poorly in SB. In BB, I'm currently only losing .13 BB/hand whereas in SB it's at -.43--only slightly better than I'd be just folding it always. What criteria do others have for when to fold SB unraised at a full table? If everyone has folded, then you're basically in a heads-up with BB and can play it accordingly. But if you have 3-4 limpers, should your pre-flop standards resemble those in LP? Anyhow, with the philosophy that I'm getting my hand in the game at half-price, I've been playing a lot of T8o here, sometimes even worse. I'm guessing this is a mistake. Also, do certain TYPES of hands play better here? (lowish pairs or suited connectors?) | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 02:25 | ||
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| P.S. to my original post: I just noticed that I could filter for tables with 6 or more players and noticed that I'm actually WINNING .12 BB/ hand in the BB but losing at a full table in SB .58 BB/hand--hence actually doing WORSE than I would by folding everything... | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Piers Majestyk, 1. Nov 2003 06:32 | ||
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| I wrote a message on 8 April that you can find under search of my name that might be useful for you. I now have many more hands than the ones I recorded there but the results are close to the ones I posted earlier. I am still a very modest winner from the SB and the BB continues to be my only losing position. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 09:19 | ||
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| The only one I find from you on Apr. 8 is about a bug in the pokertracker program. Unfortunately, I can't get a name search here to go back that far, and in the archive I can only see how to call up one day at a time. Sounds like a very interesting post, so if you could give me some more help in locating it, I would really appreciate it. | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Piers Majestyk, 1. Nov 2003 16:45 | ||
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| I copied it over so here it is. Hope it helps you some. It depends is a pretty good answer. I will give you a general rule that I follow and has seem to work well for quite a while at least for SB play. I never was able to keep track about individual wins and losses from the blinds until recently with poker tracker but what I am seeing from these stats is intuitively what I felt has been occurring over time. If the SB is 0.5 or 0.33 I will generally muck unless I have some pretty decent cards against even late steal raises. If I someone raises from the cutoff or button and I play it's going to be with a raise most likely. If someone has been banging on my small blind a few rounds and I have unplayable cards I am also going to raise him back after 2 or 3 times of his raising with pretty much anything. By reraising I want the BB out so I can get it heads up and usually take down the pot without any resistance unless the raiser has caught something which he usually hasn't. I raise from the SB more than any other position except the cutoff and button. Results from poker tracker over the last 800 small blind hands (mostly 2/4-3/6 online holdem) Saw flop 19.88% of time Preflop raise 10.13% of time Hands that won $ = 83 hands that won $ without showdown = 47.8% (the highest % of any position in my records by over 3%). Usually people will put you on a big hand with a raise out of the SB so this can be used to torture those late stealers with or without a hand). Amount won = +512.75 (ain't too bad for having the worse position) The BB position is my one losing position from which I have lost $895.00 over the last 853 times. I am beginning to think that I defend my BB too rigorously against late raisers (I see the flop slightly over 71% of the time). You're usually getting over 3:1 on your money to call the raise from one person and you would think this would be enough to make calling with all but the weakest hands a must but this hasn't shown to be very advantageous for me at least. My opponents are also calling me down more frequently when I play out of the BB (only winning without a showdown 27% of the time). I think that people just have it in their head that a guy is less likely to have a hand in the BB compared to the SB when they call or raise a late position raiser (and I think rightly so) because the money raised is only 1 small bet in BB compared to a 1.5 to nearly 2 additional bets put in from a raise in the SB. I hope all this makes a little sense and helps some. As others have written you will be a lifetime loser in the BB position. The only thing you can hope to do is keep that loss to a minimum and to do that I have become less likely to defend my BB from stealers with mediocre hands and I think it has helped although how much will have to wait more data from the upcoming months of record keeping to see if this strategy is fairing any better than the other. It also hasn't helped that I have a 1/3 win with AA for a total loss and a 2/6 record with QQ for a loss. I haven't had KK yet . Thinking now perhaps another of my problems stem from my lack of reraising more from the BB if I play when facing a late position raiser (only 2.46% of the time). I have generally made it a rule to only raise with AA and KK out of the BB (or small blind when facing multiple opponents) because your position is terrible so if that ole AK misses the flop you can quietly dump it when facing resistance and get in a little more action when you hit. I can't say I haven't ever thrown in a reraise from the big blind with 22 into a multiway pot but generally I am pretty conservative from this spot, perhaps too much so when only facing one person. Well here to wishing you to be a lifetime winner out of the blinds as long as it's not when I'm on the button:) | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 23:13 | ||
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| Very interesting indeed. If you're keeping around 20% of your SB hands altogether, that does sound statistically about like the standards that would apply to late position, I would think (please do correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here). I've definitely been staying in a lot more than that, and obviously to my detriment. Then about half the time you're raising on that--very different from my play up to now, so this is particularly interesting. Do you think this strategy would apply equally well in NL (I gather you play mainly limit games)? I may be totally off-base, but the raising strategy to me would also be suggestive of lowish pairs here (I at least rather like those hands for going into a heads-up with someone who likely just has high cards which may or may not hit on the flop). Unfortunately, flop and beyond, you're not really going to know what you're betting into until after your bet. So there's an obvious risk in that regard, but if you've got a pretty good read on the table, I guess the pre-flop raise ought to narrow the opponent's hand down fairly closely anyway. Actually, though, the more I think about it, the more your play ideas sound like when to fold, call or raise is almost less a question of holdings than of the actions of the previous bettors. Well, I know my post is getting long but since this is keeps getting more interesting the more I think about it, here's the basic ("normal") SB strategy that's emerging for me out of this: 1) AA probably plays pretty much as always 2) to limpers raise the hell out of any pair 99 or better, to raisers fold or re-raise depending on read of their hand(s). Similarly for AK and possibly AQ, whether suited or open. With only a few limpers in, consider raising any pair, and make the raise sufficient that BB will normally have to fold. 3) call otherwise pretty much as one would in LP 4) Frequently attempt pot-buys regardless of holdings, the ideal condition presumably being when there are only a few limpers are in, and they are on the timid side. Does that sound about right? | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Piers Majestyk, 1. Nov 2003 23:35 | ||
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| on 1. Nov 2003 23:13 Aisthesis wrote: > Very interesting indeed. If you're keeping around 20% of your SB hands altogether, that does sound > statistically about like the standards that would apply to late position, I would think (please do > correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here). I've definitely been staying in a lot more than that, and > obviously to my detriment. I play alot of 36 where the SB is only a 1.00 so I definately don't get involved in alot of hands from that position and if only one other person comes in I will very likely raise if I am going to play at all to attempt to get it heads up where I don't need to hit a hand to win a large percentage of the pots. > Then about half the time you're raising on that--very different from my play up to now, so this is > particularly interesting. Do you think this strategy would apply equally well in NL (I gather you play I can really give you a good feel for NL as I do generally play limit but if I have something like 56suited that I would probably dump in limit I would call if I could get in for cheap and attempt to break somebody. NL is a totally different monster. > mainly limit games)? I may be totally off-base, but the raising strategy to me would also be suggestive > of lowish pairs here (I at least rather like those hands for going into a heads-up with someone who > likely just has high cards which may or may not hit on the flop). Unfortunately, flop and beyond, you're > not really going to know what you're betting into until after your bet. So there's an obvious risk in > that regard, but if you've got a pretty good read on the table, I guess the pre-flop raise ought to > narrow the opponent's hand down fairly closely anyway. > Actually, though, the more I think about it, the more your play ideas sound like when to fold, call or > raise is almost less a question of holdings than of the actions of the previous bettors. > Well, I know my post is getting long but since this is keeps getting more interesting the more I think > about it, here's the basic ("normal") SB strategy that's emerging for me out of this: > 1) AA probably plays pretty much as always > 2) to limpers raise the hell out of any pair 99 or better, to raisers fold or re-raise depending on read Well it depends on how many limpers, I've been criticized here for my lack of raising out of the blinds but against say 2-3 limpers I will probably just call 99-QQ and see how the flop is, against 5 or 6 limpers I would probably raise Similarly for AK and possibly AQ, whether suited or open. With only a few limpers in, With a few limpers I will just call this hand and see how it develops, others will tell you to raise here. Limping has worked well for me with these hands but to each his own. > consider raising any pair, and make the raise sufficient that BB will normally have to fold. > 3) call otherwise pretty much as one would in LP > 4) Frequently attempt pot-buys regardless of holdings, the ideal condition presumably being when there > are only a few limpers are in, and they are on the timid side. If there are a few (more than 2) forget about buying many pots, if I get a piece of the flop or perhaps I don't I like to checkraise if only a couple of players in and that last one to act will bet because of position but you have to know your player. > Does that sound about right? I hope this helps some, blind play is tough and there are no easy answers to how to handle all the situations as much of it depends on the opposition who has entered the pot but I will say that I am much less likely to enter pots from the SB that I was a year ago and I think it has had a positive impact on my bankroll. | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 2. Nov 2003 10:20 | ||
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| Yes, this helps a lot. In light of your comments, the main mistake in my new "strategy outline" seems to be the ideal situation for the buy-raise, where you like to have 5-6 players in (also for raising on 99-QQ). Is the reason it doesn't tend to work well with 2-3 simply that it's too obvious when you try it in that situation? Would I be right in saying that the NUMBER of limpers in is less critical than exactly WHO they are (timid is a big plus, particularly when raising nothing, and looseness is also a plus, but against tight aggressive, much caution) as well as how one's own image is looking (the raising nothing strategy obviously needs to stay very hidden). Also, does any of the literature have particularly insightful advice on playing SB? I've got an old Sklansky around here but really need to update my poker library and have heard good reviews of some newer Sklansky/Malmuth as well as Negreanu/Jones and a Tom McElroy book (I believe co-authored, but I forget who the co-author was). | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 4. Nov 2003 02:53 | ||
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| After some initial inept applications of your ideas, I think I finally may have gotten my SB turned around. I tried it a few times right off the bat with some small successes and then one HUGE loss when I ended up trapping myself on an attempted buy. Today I think I finally got it figured out (please tell me if I'm still off): The basic idea is that you're actually in LP, so to speak, pre-flop. So you have some opportunities just like when you are in true LP and everyone has checked to you on the flop. The complication is that from SB your pre-flop positional advantage switches over into a positional disadvantage (that's how I trapped myself on the one hand), so you don't have the same kind of opportunity to re-assert your non-existent holdings from the same position. Anyhow, once I decided that it's not necessarily a disgrace to raise pre-flop and then follow it up with a check to the field if the flop looks too threatening (so they think I bluffed... I can use that, too, the next time I get a good hand), I think I can make this play, combined with greater general tightness on SB keepers, into a money-winner. Please do let me know if I'm missing something here. My conclusion now is just that the positional reversal makes the buy attempt pretty tricky to play successfully and hence to be a little cautious about when to do it and VERY cautious in playing the rest of the hand when I have to. | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Piers Majestyk, 5. Nov 2003 15:16 | ||
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| Well I am glad to hear that my strategy may have helped you a little. My only advice is continue to be very selective generally when you do enter a pot from here (it's not a crime to throw that hand away for half or one-third of a bet) as you see I have no qualms about it with only seeing about 20% of the flops but when I do come in I generally play it very strongly regardless of holdings particularly with only one late position player in, the othertimes I come in are usually with things like pairs with multiple players already in the pot hoping ot hit a set. And if you get played back at in your attempt to "buy" a pot against that lone raiser remember that he may have a hand and don't expend unnecessary chips when you have a pretty good idea that you are behind as you will find it pretty hard to push someone off the nuts:) Continued good luck. | ||
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| Re: When to fold in SB?, Aisthesis, 5. Nov 2003 17:47 | ||
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| Yes, I really do think it has. Thanks! Looking back at my original post, I had an average loss of something like .43 BB. Now it's already down to a loss of .27 BB/hand (on a little over 200 SB hands)--including all the old losses as well as the one horrible loss made before I really understood how to play the pot-buy attempt has to be played here. Having gone down that much in just a few days, I feel sure I can get that position into the black, or at least at break-even, by the end of the month. | ||
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