|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:35:48 PM PACIFIC |
 Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, mroban, 31. Oct 2003 13:31 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Last night I was playing in a UB $33 NL Tourney. The Tourney started with about 180 players and I was playing well mostly the entire tournament with a middle stack. The tournament paid the first 20 spots, with first place getting around $1200. 14-20 was worth $45. I had T4200 and there was 22 players left. Clearly I could just coast into the money. But I didn't. Because I am an idiot. Here is what happened: I get dealt 2s2c in late position. The table had tightened up a bit, but there were 3 or 4 players with big stacks who were bullying a bit. The button and the SB were smaller stacks and I knew they would fold a large bet of T1200 (blinds were 150-300) because they had less than T2000 each. Only issue was the BB who has a large stack. Here is my reasoning: The tourney leaders were around T20000, the blinds were going up to the next level in a minute and the odds of my making the final table were okay, but I wanted more chips to be competetitive and have a chance to win. So I used the theory of "be aggressive close to the money line to steal blinds and accumulate chips". With the table bully's I hadn't been able to do that and thought this was a good spot. I raised 1200 and sure enough, the button and SB folded and the BB called. Now, I am sure that the BB would have re-raised me allin if he had a large pair. I had seen him do that once or twice but was playing rather cautiously otherwise (unlike the bullys). So his flat call told me he didn't have a great hand. The flop came 4c6cJd. He checks to me and first I am thinking that he has a set and is trying to trap me. Then I decide to trust my read raise allin. To my horror he calls me, flips over AdQh. Okay, I am ahead, I had the right read. But naturally, the turn was As and I am finished when the river blanks. simultaneously, one other player at another table busted out and everyone cheered to be in the money. I felt like a complete moron. This is the kind of play I should have made perhaps once in the money and trying to build a stack before the final table, not on the money line. To play a total coin flip like that in that spot I think was a terrible move. I still like my attempt at a blind steal, but once I was called and checked to, obviously I should have shut it down. Only thing is, I trusted my read and didn't think his check was a "move" and really thought he was going to fold. I just don't understand why if he was going to call an allin bet with just two overcards, why wouldn't he just put me allin and try to get me to fold without having to play the hand? So was this as bad a play as I think or was I right to make this play? I don't think so, but would love to hear your thoughts. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| was it the right move you ask?, Andrew W, 31. Oct 2003 14:03 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Well, Im a newbie, but I have made the same mistake, and the lesson I've learned and the feedback I've gotten here tells me the same thing: don't go all-in so much. Yes, your read was right, but if anything can happen, make sure the risk is worth it. I've finished just out of the money too many times recently, and my bankroll shows it. I got cute near cut off time, and paid the price. I am not saying that's what you did, the real players here can analyze the hand better. But in my limited tourney experience, if you are not a chip leader, then getting close to the money, survival is first and foremost, then once you're in, get aggressive if you want to go up in the ranks. (f course if you're all in when the guy with 25 chips is next in the BB and you could wait that out almost automatically going up a notch, that's a real risk too) It all depends on your tournament play strategy. I got a lot out of Sklansky's tournament book, but I know many here may consider it too timid. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: was it the right move you ask?, Eman, 31. Oct 2003 14:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I like your move. You read was right you were ahead. If you checked and the ace came up on the turn. Im sure you would have folded to his bet. That would of left you with hardly any chips. Yes you would have made $45. but you wouldnt have any chips to make a run to the final table where the real payouts start. I play in alot of tourneys on UB... I would have pushed allin even with my DUCKS against small stacks and the BB. I dont sit there for two plus hours to make $45. Just my thoughts.......... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: was it the right move you ask?, mroban, 31. Oct 2003 18:36 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Eman. That was exactly my reasoning when I did it. I thought it was the right spot. Just hard not second guessing yourself when you finish out of the money. But I have the same feeling - who cares about $45 when you are playing for $1200. That was my goal. I wasn't really trying to survive into the money, I was trying to get enough chips to win it and I thought I had him in the right spot. But it wouldn't have killed me to wait 2 more minutes and try a similar play when I made the money. Nice to see differing points of view here. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, KJo, 31. Oct 2003 16:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I don't mind your all in here, if your strategy is to make it further into the money rather than just survive and make $45. Your reads were correct, and he never should have called the all in (although you didn't say what size his stack was). He probably sniffed out a steal, so you might have a tell or a leak there. Otherwise, I think it's fine- it didn't matter so much what cards you had, it mattered more about what he likely had and what he can call an all in bet with. And there's no way you could have raised less than all in with your chip stack, it was all or nothing at that point. If you're just going to be timid and play for $45, that's another thing, but I'm not that kind of player and you don't appear to be either. Eli on 31. Oct 2003 13:31 mroban wrote: > Last night I was playing in a UB $33 NL Tourney. The Tourney started with about > 180 players and I was playing well mostly the entire tournament with a middle > stack. The tournament paid the first 20 spots, with first place getting around > $1200. 14-20 was worth $45. > > I had T4200 and there was 22 players left. Clearly I could just coast into the > money. But I didn't. Because I am an idiot. Here is what happened: > > I get dealt 2s2c in late position. The table had tightened up a bit, but there > were 3 or 4 players with big stacks who were bullying a bit. The button and the > SB were smaller stacks and I knew they would fold a large bet of T1200 (blinds > were 150-300) because they had less than T2000 each. Only issue was the BB who > has a large stack. > > Here is my reasoning: The tourney leaders were around T20000, the blinds were > going up to the next level in a minute and the odds of my making the final > table were okay, but I wanted more chips to be competetitive and have a chance > to win. So I used the theory of "be aggressive close to the money line to steal > blinds and accumulate chips". With the table bully's I hadn't been able to do > that and thought this was a good spot. > > I raised 1200 and sure enough, the button and SB folded and the BB called. > Now, I am sure that the BB would have re-raised me allin if he had a large pair. > I had seen him do that once or twice but was playing rather cautiously > otherwise (unlike the bullys). So his flat call told me he didn't have a great > hand. > > The flop came 4c6cJd. He checks to me and first I am thinking that he has a > set and is trying to trap me. Then I decide to trust my read raise allin. To > my horror he calls me, flips over AdQh. Okay, I am ahead, I had the right read. > But naturally, the turn was As and I am finished when the river blanks. > > simultaneously, one other player at another table busted out and everyone > cheered to be in the money. I felt like a complete moron. > > This is the kind of play I should have made perhaps once in the money and > trying to build a stack before the final table, not on the money line. To play > a total coin flip like that in that spot I think was a terrible move. > > I still like my attempt at a blind steal, but once I was called and checked to, > obviously I should have shut it down. Only thing is, I trusted my read and > didn't think his check was a "move" and really thought he was going to fold. > > I just don't understand why if he was going to call an allin bet with just two > overcards, why wouldn't he just put me allin and try to get me to fold without > having to play the hand? > > So was this as bad a play as I think or was I right to make this play? I don't > think so, but would love to hear your thoughts. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, mroban, 31. Oct 2003 18:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Eli: No, I am not a timid player (as those at UPF play against me know!!). Not sure about a tell or leak because the tourney was online. I hadn't been playing a lot of hands if thats what you mean. Was playing pretty tight really. Earlier, I had made some raises with decent hands and the bullies came back over the top for all my chips and I decided to fold a few of those because I didn't want to play for all my chips in those spots. So if anything, I thought he would come back over the top for all my chips after my preflop raise. When he didn't, I thought I had him and it turned out I made the right call (I had put him on AQ, AK, AJ or KJ). I thought I had at least a 50-50 chance of having the best hand and going all in there was a likelihood of him folding. I really was surprised that he called. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, palman, 31. Oct 2003 18:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This is why I don't like raising with small pocket pairs.... as soon as they don't hit (88% of the time) you're left with a guessing game, and the less guessing the better when putting all of your chips at stake. I like to limp with them, which some may say is a weak move but I like it, if you're willing to bet 1200 on it then its not that bad to call 1200 assuming you'll drop it if it doesnt hit either way. Read or not.... going all in with 3 overcards on the board is always risky. Simply too many ways to lose, he hit on the flop, higher pocket pair, flush or straight draw he's willing to play with , etc. And when the turn or river comes you can never be sure what he hits and if his card helps him or not. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, mroban, 31. Oct 2003 18:44 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Palman I agree with you. Only thing is that I really didn't think I would have to play the hand. Didn't think his hand was good enough to call a 3000 allin bet (he started the hand with 10000). He would have been down to 6000 if he lost that hand. If I had a big stack with a good chance to have a lot of chips at the final table I wouldn't be making plays like that with weak hands. Whats the point? He didn't need to knock me out and risk that many of his chips. I think he made a terrible play. I could easily have had a set the way I played the hand and I was really not stealing that often (not nearly as much as I usually do because the bullies at the table were making it tough to do so). Anyway, great responses, I feel a lot better about it now. Tough not to second guess yourself when you get knocked out with a good stack at the money line. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, tommyhawk, 1. Nov 2003 03:35 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hi mroban, Here is the way I think about it and ofcourse I have been in this situation before. I.m.o I got 3 options here. 1. Fold 2.call 3. Raise all-in His stacksize is pretty big compared to yours so I have to scare him real good or not at all. 1. Fold=) you are close to the money ( not big but still it is more then moneyback and gained experience ). You are not close to be anted to death so why not wait for a better time to make more money. 2. Call=) Do I take that 7.5 to 1 change ( no odds here )of flopping a set and make him pay bigtime. I am I feeling a lucky punk ( Clint has a way of making that 2 flop ). 3. Raise all-in=) I think I got the best hand and want to make him pay for his hand or better I want him to fold taking the blinds aggressively. And setting an image for when you got a big hand. I think you were not scaring him enough and gave him (considering his stacksize) odds to call. If you had this read you might as well go all the way if you are gonna call no matter what flop comes. Like Sklansky says don't risk all your chips on a coinflip decision This is all my own thinking and maybe it is wrong or questionable but it is the way I play. Love to hear what you think. B.t.w I would have folded. Best regards, tommyhawk. Keep on learning. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, LJH, 1. Nov 2003 04:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| MROBAN, IT WAS A TERRIBLE PLAY AS YOU HAD NOTHING TO GAIN. OF COURSE IF YOU LIKE TO GAMBLE GO AHEAD,BUT A PAIR OF DEUCES IS WAY BELOW THE LINE. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, Schuster, 1. Nov 2003 22:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Say a late position open raises and you're in the big blind with AKs. You are pretty sure you've got him beat, so you move all in for a little over a pot sized raise, and to your surprise he calls with AJo. After he catches a jack on the turn, you're sent packing. Would you feel bad about your play? You got the chips in as a 3 to 1 favorite, and late in a tournament, those are some pretty good odds. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, mroban, 2. Nov 2003 09:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Really interesting to hear the different opinions here. As much as I agree Lee (your thinking was my exact reasoning) I could have waited another 2 minutes for another 2 players to bust out before making a similar move in a similar spot. Only problem with tommyhawk's analysis (IMHO) is that my read was a coinflip before the flop, but sticking to my read post flop, I had much better odds if I was right (my read was that he probably missed the flop). And again, part of my read was based on the fact that he didn't reraise me allin. Had he a big pair (or even a medium pair) I am certain he would have done just that (and wished he did in retrospect because I certainly would have folded). So my read was correct and I felt I had enough of an advantage to make that play thinking he was going to fold after the flop. I was quite surprised to see him call the allin bet. I had a 75% chance of winning after the flop. So I disagree with LJH who says I have nothing to gain (and always yells at me in his posts) - my read was correct and I could have doubled my chips and been in great position to make a run. So I had everything to gain really there. Just think I could have picked a different spot a few minutes later and at least have the satisfaction of making the money which although is peanuts, at least would have made the venture worthwhile and then I could get aggressive in these spots. Footnote, I made more money over the next hour playing in NL ring games, so from a financial perspective, losing at that moment wasn't unprofitable. I won about $80 in cash games over the next hour or so. So I have to consider my EV in making that move - on the average, I will win more than $40 playing in NL ring games so just making the money is meaningless. After busting out, I spent the next hour making more money than I would have made unless I made the final table. So had i busted out an hour later in 12th place financially I would have been in the same place more or less. I think that is something that not enough players consider in these situations when considering the money line implications. The more I think about it, the more I think I made a decent play. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Money Line Cutoff Play NL Tourney, shorn, 4. Nov 2003 09:05 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| mro- I think the play itself was fine. The problem was the opponent and the size of his stack. Since you were so close to the money, the folks to make this play against are others trying to survive. The BB was clearly not in that state, so it is more likely that he will call your steal attempt. After he calls you, I think you must shut it down. You had 4th pair and he easily could have been trapping. If you were a complete short stack, then an all-in was more appropriate, but with 3k left, you had time to wait out a few more laps and make the money. Who knows? Maybe you could have doubled through once or twice and been in a good spot. Bottom line, 22 wasn't strong enough to make that steal against one of the bully's. Steve | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|