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Server Time: 2/12/2012 11:10:14 PM PACIFIC |
 LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, Bart Mann, 31. Oct 2003 09:11 | ||
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| Lately I've been playing a lot of SNG tournaments on UB.com. When I first started playing SNGs I would play no-limit exclusively, but lately I've been flipping back and forth between No Limit and Limit, just to shake things up a bit. Over about a week or so of doing this I'm noticing that techniques that are supposed to be "universal" to Holdem poker don't work as well in one style as they do in another. One of these is the "late position raise." For example purposes I will use the following scenario: 10 person table, you're in LP and you get dealt a pair--let's say QQ, JJ or TT. Everyone ahead of you limps in (no raisers). The strategy at this point is, of course, to eliminate players preflop so you can take your pair up against less players and increase your chances of winning. In NLHE you can throw in a pot-sized raise, which will normally narrow the field down to the 1 or 2 players you are looking for. But in Limit Holdem, your 2x the BB bet usually does nothing but encourage the entire table to drop in another bet. It is rare that this bet eliminates even one person in most cases. And when the flop comes and doesn't make your set (about 87% of the time), now you're up against a myriad of baby straights, average flush draws and hidden sets from the 5 to 7 people who stayed in the pot with you. And whereas in NL you may get a free card through the ever-popular "check to the raiser" technique, in LHE with a high number of callers it is likely that someone caught a big piece of the flop, and will bet right out at you. So after all of this, I guess my point is that in Limit Holdem, it seems that a much better Late Position strategy would be to simply call with your pair (even if they're Aces), see the flop cheaply, and play the hand from there. Not only do you save yourself a second bet 87% of the time, but by not raising (and advertising that you've got big cards) no one at the table has a clue what you're holding, which will allow you to pull more bets out of them late in the hand when they're playing top pair with Ace kicker. Thoughts, anyone? | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, Blade, 31. Oct 2003 09:20 | ||
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| Seems like you are giving up an awful amount of profit which comes from good holdings in LP. Perhaps SNG players will disagree but I think that will be less profitable | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, rdale, 31. Oct 2003 10:18 | ||
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| My strategy on raising changes as the blinds increase or the type of table I'm playing. Sometimes I get lucky get a table that actually respects an extra bet and clears out, mostly I see people playing looser in the beginning when it is cheap and tightening up later. I guess some people think the game is won at 15-30 as opposed at the end of the game. So table atmosphere is the key, with the higher limits being the turning point in the way I raise. If the table is moving super tight and only a couple of callers are coming in anyways or if they have picked up that I'm a rock and I'm not getting any action on my raises I limp. I see people calling 4 bets cold and each one that calls just made the odds better for people holding J10s. When it is moving loose like this will limp because likely someone will raise for me or already has, disguises my holdings should I hit... I think preserving chips is the key to winning these games, and losing a bunch in the beginning to the loose action is not how to stick around to the end. I would rather lose a little, and win a little less, saving it for when it becomes expensive and the raise might actually work. I've been playing more league SnGs lately, which are a lot of fun, and kind of more interesting because there is an opportunity to play a different style of poker strategy than normal. Slow playing and making raises on hands I normally wouldn't, getting to mix it up and actually play the game the way I like. Most of the people that play pay attention to the cards you have raised with, and you play them frequently so a strong image is needed not only at the table you are sitting today but the one next game too. It becomes more crucial to make it harder to put you on a hand but fear your presence when you are involved in the pot. I have also found that the level of play and competition becomes much more challenging than the $5 and $10 tables that I normally play, hopefully preparing me for larger buy in tables later. | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 09:23 | ||
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| Bart, I see your point, but I still think raising is the way to go. Anytime I have the "best" hand or feel I have the "best" hand I'm trying to get my money in the middle. True, from late position you probably won't fold anyone off unless the SB or BB reraises and even then you won't lose everyone, but you still have a "better" hand than the limpers ahead of you (you have to think anyway). Now, while you may be a "collective underdog" to the "school" of limpers in the pot with you; you are still a "relative" favorite to win the hand. Therefore, (IMO) get some money in the middle and possibly more importantly take control of the hand by raising. I think this is a common problem when switching back and forth from NL and LHE. Once a player has become accustomed to NL it is hard to see the point in the smaller raises in LHE. True, they have very different effect; rather than your raise limiting the field, it is a value raise putting more money in a pot that you stand a better chance of winning than those players who are in the pot with you. Will | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, Bart Mann, 31. Oct 2003 09:33 | ||
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| So maybe the bigger issue is deciding which set of hands to raise with in LP with a high number of callers (say 5 or more). What are you thinking? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, any AK and possibly AQ suited? Would you go any lower than that with pairs? What about big suited connectors? | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?(one of you pros help us out), WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 09:46 | ||
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| Bart, That is a good question and one better answered from one of the pros. I, personally, would probably raise AA-QQ, AKs, AQs, and possibly even KQs from the button. From LP (not on the button), assuming the same criteria, I would probably be a little more liberal with my raising in an attempt to "buy the button". I would also like one of the pros to address this question due to the high number of limpers in front of you should a player raise with medium pairs as well? Barry touched on this issue from the BB position in an earlier thread. Will | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, Barry T, 31. Oct 2003 11:09 | ||
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| Hi. Interestingly, raising from late position in SNG's is not the same as raising in cash games. In a cash games, rasiing with a dominant hand, or one which will play well long term in a multi-way pot is a great idea. You do not have to win NOW, you just have to win eventually. In SnGs, unfortunately, you chips NOW are a lot more important. So the answer to your question is very complex and rests on the size of the blinds, the size of your stack, the number of players left and so on. In general (ugh!), in the early stages, or when I have a lot of chips. I would raise. When I have less, I would not. I do not like "planning to go all in" type raises. I would rather see the flop and decide what my chances are. BarryT | ||
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| Re: LP Raising in Limit Holdem--Pointless?, Formless, 31. Oct 2003 17:38 | ||
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| The reason why you think like this, I think, is because you are a tournament player. in S&G you are willing to give up a little equity to avoid variance. So in a tournament, not raising QQ is less of a crime than in a ring game. In a ring game ya gotta pound QQ w/ multiple limpers, when you do flop a set you'll make a week's worth of profit. | ||
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