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Server Time: 3/21/2010 3:14:15 PM PACIFIC |
 Could I avoid this?, Ian J, 30. Oct 2003 23:20 | ||
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| Playing in a very soft and passive 2/4 game at the local B&M, I was down about $60 when this hand came up. I get KK in the BB. A friend of mine who I know is a fairly loose player raises in EP. One MP calls and the button calls. I reraise and all three call. Now for possibly my first mistake: With a flop of A K 3 rainbow, I decide to check w/ the intention of calling and then check raising the turn. I check and it checks around. The turn is another 3 (board A K 3 3). I improved so I decide to check again because I was positive someone would bet. My friend did, the MP called and I then raised with both of them calling. When I saw the Ace on the river I just about got sick. I checked, as did my opponents and my friend showed AJo and the lady showed A6o. My question is, knowing that these players are loose, can someone point out how if possible I could have avoided this. Also, do you think the fact that I was down for the evening subconciously caused me to play the hand poorly? Thanx Ian | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 23:29 | ||
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| you already seem to know what you did wrong. you said it was passive, then tried to checkraise after 3 betting preflop, with the flop coming up AKx. no passive player i know will bet out after that. you have to bet out. they would just call, and you would bet out the turn and they would just call, and you would lose on the river. their is no other way to win there. just play the hand the way that suits the situation, players and position and youll be fine. you cant stop the ace from hitting the river or the players staying till it does... | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 23:47 | ||
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| Passive isn't the word! Two players make Aces full on the river and they both checked it behind you?! WOW!........Anyway, when the game is that passive, (and even if it weren't), leading out on the flop is a must, because any player with an Ace is going to call you, and anyone with a draw to the high straight is going to call as well. And once you took the initiative to show strength pre-flop, the pot is now big enough for you to make another lead out bet on the flop - and because the pot was 3 bets coming in, your opponents may call just looking to pick up two pair on the turn or runner, runner flush cards. The check-raise play only works if you *know* that someone is going to bet it for you. And while someone may hold an Ace here, they may be too afraid to bet it because of the strength you showed pre-flop. I don't think there's a need to give a free card . The pot is of decent size here....make them pay to draw out on you. (And what happened on the river would have happened regardless. So you definitely couldn't have avoided that outcome). I still can't believe that neither one of them bet. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 23:56 | ||
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| YEAH, ultra passive! | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, shorn, 31. Oct 2003 05:44 | ||
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| Yeah...bet the hell out of it on the flop. The pot is already pretty big (3 bets from 4 players) and you have flopped middle set with a great chance that someone (or two players) have at least an Ace, so you definitely will get action on your hand. This should be the over-riding principle when the pot is big...win it NOW. You can't do that by checking and frankly, after 3-betting preflop, your check on the flop looks awfully suspicious. | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, Ian J, 31. Oct 2003 08:07 | ||
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| After sleeping and thinking about it, you guys are dead on. I think being down for the night got the best of me and I tried to get the most out of it instead of doing what I needed to do to win the pot. Does anyone else seem to have this problem when they've been struggling during a session? Thanks once again for the advice. | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, Mark, 31. Oct 2003 09:01 | ||
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| As everyone else said, betting the flop is right. With 6 BB already in the pot on the flop, you should bet to protect "your" pot. Don't try to make tricky plays for deception at the 2-4 level, its a waste of time and effort. Even if your opponents figure out what you're doing, most of them will not know how to adjust their game to beat you. Mark | ||
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| Re: Could I avoid this?, Phish, 3. Nov 2003 20:47 | ||
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| There's no way you could've won that pot. Do you really think both 2/4 players are going to lay down top pair? I'm sure if you really think about it, there were many other situations that came up during the session that are more worthy of your analysis than this hand. | ||
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