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Server Time: 2/13/2012 12:20:39 PM PACIFIC |
 When to bet/raise, Numie, 30. Oct 2003 18:59 | ||
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| I have already finished HEFAP by Sklansky and Malmuth and am in the process of reading Lee Jones' book, and I think I found a discrepancy. Let's say I'm in a loose LLHE game and get AK or QQ in the BB. Most likely when the action comes to me there will be many people in the pot. The question is do I call or raise? Jones says to raise to punish the people who limped with weak hands, but Sklansky and Malmuth say that calling would be best so that on the flop I can go for a check-raise to force players with draws or weaker hands to make bad calls. They say that raising pre-flop would make the pot big enough the people might accidentally make the correct call on the flop because the pot is bigger. Both points sound valid to me. What do you guys think? | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Piers Majestyk, 30. Oct 2003 19:20 | ||
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| When I am in the big blind the only two hands I generally raise with when multiple people have entered the pot are AA, KK. The two hands you mentioned, particularly AK have to get a pretty good flop and then hope they can hold off multiple players. If you have the QQ and an A or K flops you can safely dump your hand without the extra investment preflop and low and behold if a Q hits the flop you can very well extract some extra bets that you may not have got or even with a flop like J82 you would be in good position to checkraise the flop to limit the field and extract a little more from those J10-AJ hands. That's just the way I handle it and it has worked well for me. I generally don't raise AK even when a middle position is the only player in and the small blind comes along or doesn't, then if the flop is something like 852 you can lead out of the BB representing something and take down the pot without a contest or if called lead again on the turn if no danger cards hit and if an A or K hits the flop check call the flop and perhaps checkraise the turn or just lead at the turn. Hope that helps some. Good luck. | ||
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| bad idea, Piers, Easy E, 30. Oct 2003 19:39 | ||
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| "hands I generally raise with when multiple people have entered the pot are AA, KK. " Must be pretty easy to play against you when you raise from the blinds... | ||
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| Re: bad idea, Piers, Piers Majestyk, 30. Oct 2003 20:03 | ||
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| you would think that but I promise you it doesn't stop them from calling and paying me off when they catch a piece of the flop. I've played on party for nearly 2 years virtually everyday and while for every one person that has come to respect my play there are a truckload that couldn't care less if ole piers raises out of the blind because they have KQ off and they certainly can't dump that powerhouse. Perhaps I am too tight and a very easy read but if so I like my results:) | ||
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| Re: bad idea, Piers, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 20:40 | ||
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| winning and losing players alike can and will give bad advice. ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 20:46 | ||
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| as Sklansky as said in another forum: "Not raising with Ace King suited in any position against three limpers is a crime against humanity. - D. Sklansky" but youve been playing online for two years, maybe not raising AK is the way to go. -----------------------------------------------------"I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 20:49 | ||
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| i should add that suited or not, AK should be raised in middle position with limpers. advocating not raising in any position with AK with limpers is almost as funny as only rasing with AA or KK in the BB with limpers. sorry | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Piers Majestyk, 30. Oct 2003 22:14 | ||
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| i did not say that i did not raise AK from any position I said that I don't generally raise it out of the blind. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 22:17 | ||
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| my apologies, i misread this sentence: I generally don't raise AK even when a middle position (i read "when a middle position" to be, "when IN middle position", whoops) on 30. Oct 2003 22:14 Piers Majestyk wrote: > i did not say that i did not raise AK from any position I said that I don't generally raise it out > of the blind. ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 22:19 | ||
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| either way, i think never raising AK in the BB is bizzare | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 21:37 | ||
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| Hey mice, How about the limp re-raise with AK suited? Yes, no? Depends?........ 4P- | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Blade, 30. Oct 2003 21:58 | ||
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| against a really fast maniac great play | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 22:10 | ||
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| I'm not quite sure that I fully understand what you're saying. So if you would, explain to me the pros (if any) and cons of limping in with AK suited and then raising it. And do you think that there should never be a situation to make such a play. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 22:12 | ||
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| LOL! what the heck happened to your original response? | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Blade, 30. Oct 2003 22:32 | ||
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| I was trying to reply to your other post and put it here instead so I changed it to a appropiate response for the thread and reposted the original where it belongs (AXs) | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Blade, 30. Oct 2003 22:30 | ||
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| How about an example. I was playing a 3-6 game and a new player sat down on my right. He immediately starting raising every hand he had and was running over the table. I play I used on him was to limp in, he would raise automatically, I would then reraise and he would cap it. This then put two bets to everyone who had called one raise. I would usually get the maniac heads up at that point which is what I wanted. make sense? | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 23:23 | ||
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| Yes, it makes sense. it's also a hand that can handle another player being in there as well. (I'm talking about AK suited, that is :) | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 22:12 | ||
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| hey 4p, ive never read any poker books, so im not sure of the by the book way...but i would limp re raise in situations where there are aggressive players to act after me that would raise with questionable hands (the types that raise with AXs when they smell the weakness of a few limpers). position, number of limpers and suspect overly aggressive players would determine my strategy. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 22:38 | ||
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| on 30. Oct 2003 22:12 modestmice wrote: > hey 4p, ive never read any poker books, so im not sure of the by the book way...but i would limp re > raise in situations where there are aggressive players to act after me that would raise with > questionable hands (the types that raise with AXs when they smell the weakness of a few limpers). > position, number of limpers and suspect overly aggressive players would determine my strategy. > Hey Mice, I was asking you, what you would do! (thanks for your reply). I think there are advantages to the limp/ re-raise with AK suited and some of the reasons you gave can make the play a good one. I'd like to know what others think about the limp re-raise with AK suited and if they have used it, and in what types of games. Or, if they would never play the hand that way under any circumstances, and if not......why. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 22:48 | ||
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| ok, but what about the original question man! do u raise with AK in BB??! with loose limpers in (4+?) i raise with AK, AQs, AJs, AA, thru JJ in BB | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 23:08 | ||
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| on 30. Oct 2003 22:48 modestmice wrote: > ok, but what about the original question man! do u raise with AK in BB??! with loose limpers in (4+?) > i raise with AK, AQs, AJs, AA, thru JJ in BB > (oops, I strayed from the real question at hand.......sorry)! I'm going to give you my answer and you probably won't like it!......."It depends". But I lean more towards raising against the right group of players, and more so if it's suited. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, modestmice, 30. Oct 2003 23:13 | ||
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| yep. to me its nearly a no brainer to raise when u have the best hand, as u probably do, in an unraised pot. getting more money in there preflop is important when u have the best hand in the blinds, i would think. | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise (4poker's limpRR comment), WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 08:47 | ||
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| 4Poker, I rarely use the limp reraise play myself, but I think it is an excellent idea to do it with AKs if for no other reason than to mix up your play. My point is: when a player limp reraises it gets the other players attention because it is "out of the ordinary". Therefore, more so than any other play IMO, you are likely to get "patterned". The majority of the time players make this play it is with AA and KK. Making this play with AKs should help to get more value from AA and KK hands when the flop is rags; as well as, add volume to a pot with hand that can stand it. Thats my thinking (elementary as it may be >LOL<) Will | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Mark, 30. Oct 2003 20:10 | ||
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| Numie The discrepancy arises because HPFAP is for "Advanced Players" in "advanced games" while low limit hold'em is for "low limit hold'em". The general differances between the theories are due to the general differences in knowledge, discipline, and style of play between the games being described. Both ways to play are correct, depending on your opponents and you ability to play pre flop. Mark | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise, Barry T, 31. Oct 2003 02:41 | ||
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| Hi. There are a small number of times when raising with AK-offsuit in limit hold'em pre-flop is incorrect. One of them is from the big blind against a significantly large (5+) field of limpers. For similar reasons, QQ, should not be raised from the big blind into a large field of limpers. You can raise from the Bb against a large field with AA, KK, AKs, 99, 88, 77, 66, 55. ANd sometimes with KQs QJs and JTs as well. BarryT | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 08:42 | ||
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| Barry, I have read this thinking before and I REALLY struggle to make myself do it. You suggest raising with the medium PP (55-99) from the BB. This ( I think) is in an effort to manipulate the pot odds to give you the proper price to see the turn if you miss your set and build a larger pot if you hit your set. Correct? What I don't like about it is; you are risking an extra bet when you get to see 3 cards (flop) for essentially free if you check, where the extra bet (if you raise) in essence gives you the pot odds to warrant calling another bet to see 1 card (turn). I know I'm missing some key aspects of this and in no way do I doubt your philosophy but I really struggle with these plays. Would you mind explaining this concept in greater detail for all of us elementary thinkers. :-) I really appreciate your input Will When are you coming to Tunica? (previous post you were asking about limits.) If you drive through Arkansas I would love to buy you lunch | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), Mark Barnett II, 31. Oct 2003 09:48 | ||
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| someday im gonna have the numbers, but the general consensus is as you say raise the volume of the pot so that when you hit your hand you win big and at the same time make the chasers see a bigger pot so they call drawing almost dead but you mostly do this with hands you need to hit very hard with the flop you dont want to do with Q's cause by increasing the size of the pot even if you get a great flop it may be hard to chase drawing hands i think this may also be one of those situations where you can get pros playing all over the spectrum *mostly call, mostly raise, inbetween* just because the EV is so dependant on what you think of your opponents and how hard you push EV *bankroll swings* | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), Barry T, 31. Oct 2003 11:21 | ||
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| Hi. Yes it true that many times peole cannot make the "correct" play because if the increased volatility. Playing on a marginal bankiroll for the game,. you cannot optimize your long term $/hr, but rather make reasonalbe $/hr while minimizing swings. BarryT | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), Barry T, 31. Oct 2003 11:18 | ||
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| Hi. I will be in Tunica doing a seminar for PokerSchoolOnline from 1/6-1/13. I will be flying from Las Vegas, so, alas, no free lunch for me. Thank you, though. The reason to raise with 99-66 is NOT to get pot odds to see the turn. It is to get pot odds NOW. If you are 7.5:1 dog to hit your set, and there are seven players in, then you are getting curent pot odds (almost) to hit your set. In the long run, you will do well to raise in this situation. Or course, you will not always win when you do hit your set, but when you do, you will get lots of additional bets as well, partly because people with, say, Q9 will see a flop of K97 and stay in because the pot is so big hoping to hit a second pair when they are drawing nearly dead to your 77. If you raise and miss you set, in general you should check and fold. (But it is possible pot odds and the structure of the flop might indicate calling in rare circumstances). BarryT | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 11:23 | ||
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| Thanks Barry, Something similar came up in another thread about raising from late position with 5 limpers in front. Do you have time to compare the different raising hands in the same situation except in LP vs. the BB? What are the details about attending your seminar? Thanks Will | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), Barry T, 31. Oct 2003 12:24 | ||
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| Hi. Here are seminar details: PokerSchoolOnline (PSO) sponsors a convention for members once a year. This will be the second. Included is a 2-day seminar (8:0 AM - 1:00 PM) held 1/8 and 1/9, 2003 . Scheduled speakers are Bob Caiffone, Nolan Dalla, Matthew Hilger, John Vorhaus and me (plus some surprises). Admission is free to PSO members and $25 for guests. PSO membership is $15/month or $150/year. You get a lot for the membership. See www.pokerschoolonline.com for details. Late raising with multiple limpers has a lot in common with blind raising, but because of position, you can sometimes try a few more more hands that love multiway action. You also have a chance to eliminate the blinds. There is no single formula, though, as a lot depends on how your players behave post-flop. BarryT | ||
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| Re: When to bet/raise(Barry), WilliamS, 31. Oct 2003 12:26 | ||
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| Barry, I hate to badger you :-) but where will the seminars be held at? Will | ||
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