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Server Time: 7/30/2010 5:47:49 PM PACIFIC |
 Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 30. Oct 2003 17:12 | ||
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| In continuance of the ongoing check-raise discussion: After the comments of Roy and others on this, I've been trying it a lot on high pair in EP (where my previous play had always been to bet out) and am loving it--as long as I'm pretty sure there's someone later who'll bet out something, I'm even doing it with the flush draw showing, and I think it works better than betting out. But there's an obvious situation here that I'm not sure exactly how to handle, so I'd be interested in some opinions: Let's assume I'm in EP, perhaps UTG with KJo and a table of fairly tight players but with someone on the button who will pretty definitely make a buy attempt if everything is checked that far. Flop shows something like K84, let's say rainbow to make it a little easier. Ok, I have high pair with acceptable, though certainly vulnerable, kicker. I decide to check it and go for the checkraise. Now, if someone in LP bets 1/2 the pot, I'll just go ahead and do my checkraise, and we go from there. But if that person (again assuming it's a reasonably tight player) bets pot, a true checkraise would mean that I would be putting in more than I'm normally comfortable with on this hand. I have to call his pot-sized bet and then raise it, hence betting 2x pot. As checkraiser in that position with those cards, am I better off with a call (taking the bite out of my checkraise but perhaps keeping the size of the bet more appropriate to the strength of the hand) or should I go ahead and raise his bet? With something like AKo in the same situation, I wouldn't have a problem with carrying out my checkraise to a good strong bet, but KJo seems like it might be a little weak. | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 17:27 | ||
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| The (problem) I see with your example is that you're playing KJ offsuit in an UTG position. The hand just isn't strong enough to limp in with from that spot. And it becomes even harder to play post-flop for the reasons you gave. If the game is tight, yet aggresive, there shouldn't be any hesitation at all to throw this hand away pre-flop. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 30. Oct 2003 17:37 | ||
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| Damn you're picky! | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, 4 POKER, 30. Oct 2003 17:39 | ||
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| You're right! | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Schuster, 31. Oct 2003 13:43 | ||
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| He is picky but he's 100% right. You shouldn't even think about playing KJo from EP in most no limit games. Most of the time, it will lose a large pot or win a small one. Also checkraising in no limit is much less necessary simply because you don't need it to give draws bad odds. Just bet bigger. You should checkraise occasionally so that people don't always think you are weak when you check, but it shouldn't be that often. Lee | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 31. Oct 2003 18:34 | ||
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| Hmmm... ok, 4 Poker has indeed put the standard AWFULLY high, though, although he does allow the occasion suited connector. How about KQo? I know 4P doesn't like it, but is he being extreme on this or is that fairly standard for good players? Same question, too, regarding pairs: Is JJ absolute minimum for UTG? On the same note, where are you guys drawing the line for MP? Am I right in considering UTG as EP but UTG + 1 as (weak) MP? | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, 4 POKER, 31. Oct 2003 19:58 | ||
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| on 31. Oct 2003 18:34 Aisthesis wrote: > Hmmm... ok, 4 Poker has indeed put the standard AWFULLY high, though, although he does allow the occasion > suited connector. How about KQo? I know 4P doesn't like it, but is he being extreme on this or is that > fairly standard for good players? Same question, too, regarding pairs: Is JJ absolute minimum for UTG? > On the same note, where are you guys drawing the line for MP? Am I right in considering UTG as EP but > UTG + 1 as (weak) MP? Aisthesis, Let me start out by saying that everything is situational - how you play postflop matters alot - if the game is shorthanded matters also. How aggresive your opponents who are acting behind you, matters alot, too. There's so many different things and subtleties that can change something from black and white .....to the more grey areas in poker. I was trying to tell you that "in general" KJ offsuit is not a strong hand upfront and it may be a troubled hand to play in that spot due to aggresive players, kicker problems, etc.. Yes, my requirements in general to enter a pot are quite high, but I always try to take my table image and my opponents at hand into consideration as well. How passive or how aggresive a game is matters as well. (and I know you know all this stuff). Now I may not 'generally' enter a pot with KJo in EP, especially with the wrong line-up of players, but, I will on 'occasion' raise (not call) with 5-6 suited from the same spot! ( But I want to say..... this is just an example hand of a very small piece of my game). Now, Would I do that in just any game?....hell no! But I will do it just to mix things up when I feel that it can earn me more money, later on- when I feel that my timing is right and my opponents are perceiving me as being only one way. The key to doing it is to not let the hand cost you money postflop when it's clear that my "play" (bluff-raise) didn't work. And I wouldn't do it if the game was not the perfect game to do it in. All that stuff goes into my thinking before I do it, whether it seems to be the correct and by the book way, or not. But the guidelines that the books gives us are important, and how we can deviate from them sometimes is important too - knowing when you think an unconventional play/raise may work can only be done (IMO) by the person who is actually sitting in the game. It doesn't mean to just 'throw out a raise' for no reason and for no purpose behind it. And you don't ever want to make a play out of frustration. But you, me and the next guy , (all being strong players!)....we "can" deviate from time to time when "we" think that the time is right. And you wouldn't have to win that hand "that time" for the play to become correct. (But like I said, it's very important to know why we are coming to the decisions that we are coming to). Now you asked what hands are raisable from EP, correct? I think that depends alot on what the texture of the game is, but generally I will raise with a pair of nines or better from that spot - but the games I play in are usually not a full 10 handed game (though not very shorthanded either), and there usually are not that many players calling multiple bets pre-flop. And I think that once a person gets a good feel for the game and is comfortable in his own shoes and has developed very strong poker habits and skills, then that is when a player will be able to add a few more things to his game. (Not playing reckless poker) - just mixing it up when he/she thinks the situation is right, while having a very good understanding for the game and for his game, as well. (I'm sorry for this drawn out response, I really am, and I hope I wasn't coming across harsh in my other response to you- I wasn't trying to.) 4P- | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 01:19 | ||
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| Certainly no need to apologize for the lengthy post. Quite the contrary, I really appreciate it and think it has already improved my game.a good deal. Basically, I think I've started appreciating the significance of position a lot more. Thanks very much for your help! | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 01:49 | ||
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| The 99 raise is very interesting UTG--particularly since before reading this, I just chickened out on a 99 altogether there this evening (at the same table, though, I got a good pot actually raising 44 at button -1; got one caller who lost his nerve when I bet pot on the flop). I'm assuming the thinking there goes something like this (I'll assume 9 players, since that's what I usually play, shorthanded is obviously completely different): The chances of getting a pocket pair are 1/17, hence about 50-50 that someone else has ANY pair and somewhere around 1/5 or 1/6 that someone has TT or better. Moreover, if the raise looks to the table like AA or KK, there's a fair chance they'll fold anything less than QQ. If someone calls with AK, even if they hit, they will at least have to know that they're vulnerable to the A or K set. So one should have somewhere in the vicinity of an 80% shot at taking the hand, with a return each time maybe on the average of 3 x BB, possibly more. Ok, that sounds good to me. If a tight player shoots a pre-flop raise back (hence presumably AA or KK), probably just fold it right there? The trick is of course going to be keeping the losses under control when you lose--particularly when TT to KK just call and you (I would think) as a rule are pretty much going to have to bet pot on the flop. Does my thinking sound right here? Or am I completely missing your strategy on this hand? | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, 4 POKER, 1. Nov 2003 02:07 | ||
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| Hi, You referred to 'betting the pot' - are you speaking of PLH only? Because I was talking about limit games. Let me know so maybe I could give you my thoughts. But just to inform you a bit - I really don't play PLH too often:) 4P- | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 1. Nov 2003 02:20 | ||
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| Hey! Glad you turned out to be a night-owl as well, hence almost immediate reply... :) Actually, I'm always playing NL. I really should include that every time, since it sounds like most of the people here play high-stakes limit poker. I'm just enjoying NL so much I haven't really dabbled in anything else... no doubt to my detriment, but I figure specialization has it's advantages, too... | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Aisthesis, 30. Oct 2003 17:44 | ||
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| I guess that being said, it goes with saying that IF one should indeed go ahead and limp with it, then even with the K pair, it's not strong enough to checkraise on... I don't know... to me that all sounds just unbearably tight... | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Piers Majestyk, 30. Oct 2003 19:24 | ||
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| you think that's tight I dump KQ off preflop too! KJ is way too troublesome of a hand to get involved with in EP or in my opinion any position, if I am dying to play something mediocre I would much rather have a hand such as 56suited to gamble with. | ||
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| Re: Check-raise or check-call?, Mark Barnett II, 31. Oct 2003 09:24 | ||
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| now when i was asking about CRing i was asking about limit arent there even more variables involved when you play PL or NL concerning CRing? | ||
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