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Server Time: 3/15/2010 9:22:35 PM PACIFIC |
 How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, johnny, 30. Oct 2003 11:06 | ||
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| I never know how to play this. I'll just give a hypothetical example. 3/6 Hold 'Em at PartyPoker. I'm in BB with Kd2h. 1 MP limper. Button limps. SB completes. I check. Flop comes Kh 8s 3c. What do I (you) do? Bet and go into check-fold mode if anyone calls? Or bet again if I'm called and a blank hits the turn? The last two times I've been in this situation I (1) bet all the way to the river to be outkicked, and (2) checked and then layed it down to a bet, which won with 2nd best pair. Thanks, Johnny. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Schuster, 30. Oct 2003 11:15 | ||
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| When you bet that flop and get called, you pretty much have to shut down. There's no draws available and the pot is small enough that people are unlikely to be chasing 2nd or 3rd pair. More often than not, you don't have the best hand in this situation. Lee | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Blade, 30. Oct 2003 11:32 | ||
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| I bet and hope for either a raise (I happily fold) or rarely to win the pot right there. If neither happens I hope to improve on the turn or depending on how weak my kicker is I either check or bet. Again I fold to a raise. I check and call the river. I play low limit and rountinely see players who will not fold 2nd or even 3rd pair regardless. With 2 as my kicker I am more inclined to check fold when I have something like K8 or K7 I am more likely to stay. I also pay attention to what player is calling, if I know what the player will see the flop with my decision is easy. Also if I have more than 1 MAYBE 2 (very poor players) call my first bet I check the turn and fold. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, FlopDaNutz, 30. Oct 2003 11:44 | ||
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| I agree with Blade, but it also depends on how many people saw the flop, also how well you know these people. If you are heads up or 3-handed, it may be risky, but you can try and pull a check raise and either hope to buy the pot there, or get a free river card to see if your hand improves. Again, this also has a lot to do with your read on the player. I usually have a good idea of who will call top pair low-decent kicker, and who might be playing second pair with high kicker. If someone calls or caps the check raise, you can almost bet he has K high kicker, 2 pair or a set, which you would obviosly fold to. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, mkpoker, 30. Oct 2003 11:42 | ||
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| Unfortunately, this is really an "it depends" question. IMO, it depends on: 1) The rank of the top card. Ironically, the "better" your pair, the "worse" your hand. For example, if you hold A7 and the flop has an A, you're in trouble because there's a strong chance someone holds a better ace. If, on the other hand, you play 95 and the flop is 962, there's a much better chance you're ahead because the flop missed everyone. 2) the number of players in the hand. Obviously, the more people in the hand, the greater the chance the flop hit someone. If I held J4 against one early limper and flop came J62, I'd feel OK about my situation. But if there were 7 limpers in, I'd figure I was behind and would be much less likely to bet out. 3) your position. Of course, the BB has among the worst positions possible after the pre-flop round. Against a lot of players, I'll often check just to see what happens. If it's bet and raised by the time it gets back to me, I'll drop out. If no one seems especially interested (one or two bettors only), maybe I'll check-raise and try to take the pot there. 4) Your reads of other players. It almost goes without saying, but if you think your opponent is very tight or very loose it will affect the hand you put him on. In your example, if your opponent plays very tight, there's an excellent chance he'd have you beat, because so many 'tight' hands include kings. If he's loose and would open with low or middle suited connectors, it's far more likely that you're ahead, simply because the range of hands he might hold is far broader. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Schuster, 30. Oct 2003 12:02 | ||
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| > 1) The rank of the top card. Ironically, the "better" your pair, the "worse" your > hand. For example, if you hold A7 and the flop has an A, you're in trouble because > there's a strong chance someone holds a better ace. If, on the other hand, you play > 95 and the flop is 962, there's a much better chance you're ahead because the flop > missed everyone. I disagree with this part. A middle player open limps and the button just limps. Most players would raise a playble hand with a king in it in this spot, whereas they are more likely to limp with a hand like QJ or JT. I'd much rather flop a king with weak kicker than a queen or a jack in a situation like this. A ten is kinda borderline, and from there down, chances are better that your top pair is good. Lee | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, mkpoker, 30. Oct 2003 12:11 | ||
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| I think Lee has a good point. My main case is that top pairs outside the "playing zone" are more likely to be ahead because the flop is more likely to have missed everyone else. However, I think Lee is right that you have a greater chance of being ahead *in an unraised pot* with a pair at the higher end of the "zone" than at the lower end, because players holding cards at the higher end would often raise, as he described. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Schuster, 30. Oct 2003 15:43 | ||
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| I think we're on the same page. The one thing though is that against the players who play any ace, you really have to be careful if you hit an ace. Lee | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, mroban, 30. Oct 2003 12:35 | ||
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| I bet out the flop and fold a re-raise. After that I shut it down, check and fold the turn if you don't improve. Yes, you see a lot of players calling all the way down with 2nd and 3rd best pairs with Ace kickers (or worse) but I don't think the small pot justifies the risk that you are outkicked. I hate those hands and hate playing them so I either win on the flop or I just move on. I don't think you lose much (if anything) in the long run playing that way and its probably more profitable than betting each round to the river. The guy with K6 is calling you and is always pleasantly surprised that he wins the pot. I think I need to have K9 or better to go beyond the flop. Also, if you do play beyond the flop absolutely check and fold if an ace hits the turn or river. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Mark, 30. Oct 2003 13:00 | ||
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| I base my decision on the # of players and my reads. If there are alot of opponents, i will throw out one bet on a completely ragged board and hope to get calls from players who draw thin. If there are alot of calls i'm pretty much done with the hand. If the board is conected or suited, i will check and probably fold. Against only 2 or 3 opponents, i will lead until i'm raised. Then, depending on the raiser, i may call or fold. Your odds of winning go way up vs. fewer opponents. Also, your odds of getting overtaken go way up when there are possible draws out agaisnt you. With a two flush and a 2 str8 on board vs 5 or 6 opponents, i would never bet the flop. Your odds of getting raised are very big by a top pair-bigger kicker and with so many people drawing agaisnt you, you will get overtaken very often on the Turn or River. betting in this type of situation is bankroll suicide. On the other hand, versus 2 opponents on a board like K 94 (you have K2o) a bet is automatic. Mark | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, shorn, 30. Oct 2003 13:17 | ||
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| Bet out and if anyone shows strength, you need to shut down. Perhaps call a raise to maybe peel off your kicker for two pair on the turn, but checking and calling both the turn and river with this type of hand is losing poker in the long run, especially is the pot is multi-way. | ||
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| Re: How do you play top pair crap kicker in BB?, Flatout_Mainiac, 30. Oct 2003 14:11 | ||
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| This sometimes what I do and I would like others who have more experience than me comment on this as I'm not sure if it is a good play or not. If there are a bunch of players in the hand I will sometimes check top card crap kicker. If it is checked around to the button and I have a read on the button that he will bet anything if it was check to him I will check-raise in hopes to isolate him. If there is any action before it gets to the button or even 2nd from the button more than likely fold as I assume he's got my kicker beat as it is less likely, from my limited experience, that i got a bettor from that position beat. shorthanded, I bet out hoping to take it right there. I proceed with caution if I don't take it there on the flop. | ||
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