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Server Time: 11/23/2008 4:12:09 AM PACIFIC |
 AJ on the Big Blind, Allyc, 29. Oct 2003 07:12 | ||
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| 9 handed game, I have AsJc on BB. MP and button call, I check. Flop is 3h 7h Jd. Except for the 2 flush, it's an ok flop. I bet, MP calls and the button raises. Unless he was slow playing a big pair, the nut flush draw is a strong possibility. Against 2 other players, i don't see my hand as being strong enough to reraise, but it must be worth a call, MP calls. The turn is a blank, I decide to check (even although the button may have been trying to buy a free), MP checks, the button bets and we both call. The river is another blank, again it's checked to the button, who bets. Got to consider a busted flush a possibility at this point and MP has shown no aggression throughout. I call, MP calls. Button turns over Jh8h for top pair 8 kicker and 4 flush. MP turns over pocket queens! Given how passively MP played his hand, i don't think i could have played mine any differently. It wasn't strong enough to raise or reraise at any point, but it was good enough to call down. Agree/disagree? | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 07:53 | ||
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| UGH!!! I disagree. I think a 3-bet is automatic on that flop. You have top pair/top kicker, so you need to make anyone out there with two hearts, 89, or KQ pay the max to get there. Frankly, calling was your worst option...folding was second best and raising was easily the best choice. You definitely should have led out as well. This is a flop that I would cap without hesitation with your holding. On the turn when a complete blank hits, you are basically conceding the hand by checking. Your mantra when the turn is a blank here MUST be NO FREE CARDS. If you are beaten here, then so be it. But you played this hand way way too passively to be a winner. Yes, the guy with QQ also played it badly and got lucky, but don't be concerned with his play. I would want him at my table all day long. The key to winning poker is selective/aggressive play. You probably have the selective part down, but you need to be way more aggressive when you have a decent hand (which you did here). The result of the hand is meaningless (that you would have lost more on this particular hand if you had been aggressive)...you MUST be aggressive when in a hand or GET OUT. Checking and calling is very rarely a correct strategy in hold 'em (Sklansky). Sorry that this was harsh, but I felt that you played this hand quite poorly (and I think others will agree with me here). But, keep posting here on hands like this and hopefully we will collectively get you to be more aggressive on hands like this! Keep at it. Steve | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 07:54 | ||
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| Sorry...I saw that you did lead out so i apologize for mentioning that. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 08:24 | ||
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| My first thought was 3 bet the flop without a doubt. A check raise my have been worth a try but would have been risky. The QQ is meaningless. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Flatout_Mainiac, 29. Oct 2003 08:39 | ||
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| I would debating calling or three betting thinking that a set was also a possiblility. But I guess the 3 bet button call would rule that out for you pretty quickly and it would make it easier to play the rest of the hand. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Allyc, 29. Oct 2003 11:11 | ||
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| Hi, thanks for the analysis. I did strongly consider the reraise on the flop, but i wanted to reraise only for the purpose of knocking out MP. Since he had already called on the flop, i didn't think i could get him out at that point. If i had held Ah, I would have been more inclined to reraise, holding the back door flush draw. Looking back at the hand, with a blank on the turn a checkraise might have been the best option at that point, forcing MP to call 2 big bets?tx. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, noiseboy, 29. Oct 2003 08:44 | ||
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| You need to push it more when you have top pair top kicker and only two opponents who are likely trying to draw out on you, or who have top pair weaker kicker and you have dominated. In either case, the answer is to bet as much as possible, until significant strength is shown by one of your opponents and you have to consider two pair or a set. I would have 3-bet the flop, and if the flop didn't get capped, I would have assumed I was still in the lead and bet out the turn. If I got raised again on the turn, then I would just check/call the river. Basically, the two flush is a bonus for your hand, yes you will lose about a third of the time, but the pots you win will be bigger than if the flush draw wasn't there. In limit poker, whenever you think you probably have the best hand, you usually need to push it, unless there are so many opponents that most of the cards in the deck will crack your hand. 3-handed, don't worry about a slow play, push the hand until they tell you with their betting that they have something better. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, noiseboy, 29. Oct 2003 08:51 | ||
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| One more thing, don't worry about the fact that in this case you might have lost more money with the correct play. When you have the top pair of J's and the best kicker of an A, it is very seldom that you run into a big pocket pair in the hole, especially in an unraised pot. The guy with QQ's gave you every chance to beat him by not raising before the flop, or on the flop. This is the guy you want in your game because he won't win much when he has a good hand, because he will get drawn out on so frequently when he is in the lead playing so wimpy, and when he doesn't have much of a hand he will lose more because of his predilection for calling. Anyway, that's a pretty good flop for AJ, especially in an unraised pot, you just don't worry about a big pair in the hole, and you don't worry about a set until one of your opponents caps it on the flop, or raises you when you've 3-bet the flop then bet out the turn. And if the guy is slowplaying, once you've shown significant strength and someone comes over the top, it really means something then, and you can laydown or just try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible after that. Hope this helps and good luck! | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 11:55 | ||
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| How about a different scenerio for everyone. Same hand as above until flop at which point her reraises and MP calls. The on turn he bets out and is raised. At this point you still have top pair on the board with top kicker and have represented as such. As long as you know the player is not complete maniac who would make this play with very little or nothing would it be correct to fold here or call and then check call? | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 12:11 | ||
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| Can't fold. You still likely have five outs unless he is holding AA which is doubtful given pre-flop action. I think you have to call the raise and check/call if you don't improve or check/raise if you do. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 12:31 | ||
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| I agree but doesn't this then weaken the case for capping the flop and then betting out at the turn (which I also agree with) as we all agree that if raised a call check call are in order. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I don't think it weakens it. The reason being a lot of players do some funky stuff on the flop with raises that aren't done on the turn. A turn raise has much more significance than a flop raise in my opinion as it is generally where hands are defined by players. I know a lot of players who will cap a nut draw on the flop but then just call a turn bet. So, a raise on the turn signifies to me that the raiser has AJ beat. So, then it becomes a matter of deciding whether you have pot odds to call for 5 outs (or 2 if you can be certain your opponent holds AA). | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 12:53 | ||
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| Yeah I see your point. A raise on the turn does mean AJ is beat so you then go into a drawing situation based on pot odds. Thanks | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 13:16 | ||
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| The more I think about it in order to call using 5 outs don't you have to put him on 2pair and a weak two pair at that. Otherwise I would think that more times than not you put him on set which at best gives you two outs and at worst your dead if he has JJ. Even if you did it probability based 50-50 gives you 3.5outs and 70-30 set gives you 2.9. You would have to have much higher pot odds to call. Yes? Edit Of course if you put him set you are dead which makes the above case even worse | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 14:06 | ||
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| The way the hand played out, no way he has JJ. He just passively called the button's raise here and he would most certainly have re-raised with top set to try and lose 1 player since there were two draws out there. And, even if he did have that hand, you still have to cap it and play the turn the same way. If he has JJ, then you are dead. But, youcan't always fear monster's under the bed and until someone shows me that AJ is no good, I need to assume it is and ram and jam to make those draws pay. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 14:16 | ||
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| Yeah but if after cold calling two bets on the flop and then raising the turn what more would you need to be told AJ is beat? My worry wouldn't be JJ as much as a set in which case you have 0 outs. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, noiseboy, 29. Oct 2003 12:14 | ||
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| When to call a raise on the turn is often a matter of your read of the player doing the raising. The pot is getting to be pretty decent sized, so as long as I think my outs are good, I'd probably lean towards calling it down. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, PairTheBoard, 29. Oct 2003 13:07 | ||
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| If the player raising the turn is one who rarely raises the turn or makes bluff or semibluff moves of this type, then I would conclude he almost certainly has a set of 7's and I'm drawing dead. I would not want to pay him off another two BB's to see them. My outs to the case of an overpair like QQ's don't mean much considering pre-flop was unraised and the set is so much more likely. There are many players who I would be forced to call down though. If I knew nothing about the player I would almost certainly call him down. There are players who will turn raise here with QJ or KJ, especially if they have a flush draw to boot. | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, Blade, 29. Oct 2003 13:18 | ||
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| My thoughts as well. So doesn't this mean that if you are going to cap & bet out you have to be willing to fold to a raise otherwise you should slow down? | ||
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| Re: AJ on the Big Blind, mroban, 29. Oct 2003 14:14 | ||
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| I don't see how you could have put MP on an overpair. | ||
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