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Server Time: 11/23/2008 5:40:55 AM PACIFIC |
 Folding AA in NL, JonnyC, 29. Oct 2003 06:41 | ||
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| Alright I'm playing NL 100 dollars and in my first hand I get AA in MP. I double the blinds when its checked to me, and get two callers, someone in LP and someone in the SB. Flop comes 5d6dQc. The SB bets 30 dollars. Is the proper move here to go all in or to fold? I knew nothing about this table and about the player who bet. I ended up folding, which is always tough, and which is why im writing this. Thanks for you help Jon | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, FlopDaNutz, 29. Oct 2003 06:46 | ||
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| Tough call...I would say he has one of two things...top pair high kicker and wanting to make people pay for a flush draw, or just the opposite..he is betting is flush draw and if everyone folds, he is just as happy. Some people at the NL tables will bet the flush draws big, that way when it hits, it pays off huge. They often do this when one of thier cards is middle or top pair. I would have prob called the $30, if another suit hit...then i would have prob folded. Either that or go over the top and put him all in. It's a tough one to fold because if he had pocket Q's he would have probably raised your Double BB. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, Easy E, 29. Oct 2003 07:05 | ||
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| Do you have the Ad ? Folding depends on how fast the blinds will move up (i.e. how much of a crapshoot the tourney will be). I would at least call here, unless your Aces are black- then MAYBE think about folding. Next time, if you don't want callers and tough decisions, make a bigger preflop bet. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 07:39 | ||
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| All-in without hesitation, or make a pot sized raise. With that board, it is likely that the bettor has something like KQ or AQ, so he probably won't fold to your raise. Also, you need to make sure that you make any draws pay the max since I find it hard to believe you are behind here (with the exception of middle or bottom set). If you are, then you will lose a lot of chips on this hand. Also, you need to raise more than just double the blinds pre-flop. I realize that you want ti win a lot with AA, but you would certainly prefer to play it heads up in NL, hopefully against AK or AQ. Steve | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 29. Oct 2003 14:36 | ||
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| Steve: I really disagree but totally respect your opinion. I just think its impossible to have a read on this guy. Jonny made a weak raise that doesn't give any information. I am as likely to think he made a set or 2 pair as playing Ax and hitting top or second pair with an ace kicker. At best I am 50-50 and don't think its worth going all in here. The guy made a $30 raise and will only fold a total bluff (which there is no way to read here given the information). I am probably going to fold here. I agree that raising all in is a much better play than flat calling though given the possibility of the flush draw or KQ. My only hesitation is that most players will look to check raise with a set. The usual pattern there is check (then you check) and he either checks again or bets out on the turn (then fold). The $30 raise is suspiciously aggressive. But I rarely see players online raise that big with a flush draw. Rather, I would be more inclined to think the SB hit a set or 2 pair and fears that jonny had the fourflush. He was making sure that jonny paid big to hit that flush. Again, I think folding is the right play. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, shorn, 30. Oct 2003 06:00 | ||
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| Mroban- Good points all, but I think if you fold AA in this spot, that is a really weak play. It is not like the guy bet $30 into a full table of callers...it is only you and 1 other player. Since I agree that you don't have a read on the guy, you need to put him to the test with your overpair. If he calls your pot-szed raise (assuming you don't go all-in), then you can slow down on the turn (as he will surely check to you) and potentially hti an Ace. Sure, he could have 56 or 55, but if you are going to worry about that every time you flop an overpair, then you should stick to limit. There are times when you are going to lose a bunch of money in these games by being aggressive. But, over the long term you can't win in NL without making plays like this. I guess the real question is, what kind of non-Ace flop were you looking for to continue to play this hand? If you can't play AA into a Q56 flop, then I would fold up the tent. Sorry if this was harsh, but we are in a lot of disagreement here and despite the good points you made about no read, I really feel strongly that folding here is a terrible play. I look forward to your counter thoughts. Steve | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 30. Oct 2003 09:18 | ||
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| Steve: I totally agree with your analysis but the $30 bet is the problem which is a monster raise from the blind in a $100 game and I know you would agree such a play is not that usual on these tables. The more I think about it the more I am thinking your reasoning is correct. There is no way the SB could read jonny for AA based on his weak raise preflop. So if he had AQ he might make a huge raise to prevent a flush draw from calling. My biggest problem with the hand Steve is only that there is no way jonny could really know what the SB had since the SB is likely to call with anything here. Had he made a real raise preflop then the decision to go allin or not would be clearer. Its not the Qxx flop that concerns me but the actions of the raiser. In general though, players make big raises with top pair top kicker all the time and a player with AQ in that spot would certainly call the preflop raise and would certainly make a big raise on the flop as a check there would make no sense (risking giving a free card to a flush draw). I think the allin play there is definitely correct "the right play". But I have gotten burned for all my chips in that situation before and I suppose I am advocating prudence where a blind was given an easy opportunity to call and then makes a big bet out on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, shorn, 30. Oct 2003 09:54 | ||
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| I hear ya. You have to get burned a few times in this game though to make any money long run. The amount of times you will catch someone with AQ or worse in that spot with your overpair way outweigh the times when you will be shown a set. In fact, I have seen players make that same kind of "bet the pot" play on that type of flop with Axs of the suit. So, in order to really cash in, you have to put it all on the line and get burned sometimes. I know if I were the small blind holding AQ, I would probably have bet the pot on that flop and then folded to an all-in raise. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 30. Oct 2003 12:16 | ||
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| I am coming around to your thinking Steve and now agree with you. I just wish he made a real preflop raise, that would have made the allin decision much easier. Then it would be a no-brainer because I could essentially rule out the Q8 or some other goofy combo. AQ would definitely be a strong possibility there if the SB called a 4x blind raise. Most of the time when opponents make a set they go for the trap/check raise rather than betting it right out so ruling out a two pair and a set makes the allin reraise a no-brainer. But yeah, I suppose even in this instance you would have to put the other player to the test and its possible he might even fold a two pair (although I haven't seen too many players lay down two pair online). Even if he has two pair, you have enough outs to justify the play as you have at least 5 outs and two draws to improve to make the best hand. The more I think about it the more I realize you are correct. Okay Jonny, push allin!! | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, shorn, 30. Oct 2003 12:39 | ||
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| I totally agree on the preflop raise. It has to be 3-5x the blind (depending on the game) to really give you any information. However, AQ in the SB might still call that type of raise and bet strong on the flop, so it doesn't change my behavior all that much in terms of raising the pot (or all-in) with my AA to that flop. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, WilliamS, 29. Oct 2003 09:16 | ||
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| I go all-in right there. If the player had a set or two pair there is an excellent chance he would go for the ckraise all-in. So, assuming that "read" (if you can call it that) is correct you are ahead in the hand. If he calls your all-in with AQ, QK, QJ, or a lower PP (my best guesses) he is drawing to as many as 5 outs and as few as 2 outs making you, at worst, a 38:7 favorite. If he has 4 to a flush, he made a very peculiar bet, because (if I'm reading this right) he way overbet the pot with his 30 dollar flop bet so I am eliminating the flush possibility. (But if he has 4 to a flush you are still a favorite to win the hand even though he will be getting proper odds to call your raise) That is the way I see it, but I lose quite a bit of money in NL games because of NOT folding in situations like these. If the situation was reversed and you bet the 30 dollars and he checkraised you all-in I would probably fold fearing 2 pair or more likely a set. Him betting out first and the size of the bet make me call in this situation. Will | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, JonnyC, 29. Oct 2003 09:31 | ||
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| You guys are right, i shoulda went all in. I did have two black aces. My reason for folding was that i figured the player easily could have called with Q5 or Q6 suited, as well as middle or bottom set. To make it worse, another A comes off at the turn, the player behind me goes all in and the SB folds, and the SB who called turns out to be a maniac beyond maniac when it comes to bluffing (30 dollar bluff bet every time). Well, you live and learn i guess thanks for your help Jon | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 29. Oct 2003 10:18 | ||
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| Really depends on your read and since you didn't have one folding is probably the best option since the SB either has 2 pair or made a set most likely. However, it is not out of the realm of possibility that he made top pair with top kicker and is trying to get you to fold. Big problem here (for me anyway) is that you only made a 2x raise preflop. The SB only had to call a bet of $1.5 to call your raise preflop so he could be calling with Axs or something like that. But this is the kind of play that you can usually get a good read on a player with by watching his betting patterns. Does he make big bets with his good hands or does he try to check raise? Very often a player that makes a set on a flop will try to trap a preflop raiser. But without knowing that, I would assume the SB made a small set or 2 pair and would probably fold a bet that big in that spot. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 29. Oct 2003 14:22 | ||
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| oh yeah, i forgot to account for the possibility of a flush draw but I haven't seen too many players make raises that big on straight or flush draws. Usually they make a scared 2x blind type raise hoping to get others out. I would have ruled out the flush draw for that reason, but I could be wrong. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, noiseboy, 29. Oct 2003 10:23 | ||
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| You basically put yourself in a tricky situation. If you had raised a larger amount with the AA's then you could better assess what your opponents have by the flop action. If you had just limped intending to put in a reraise, and nobody raised it, then you have an easy fold. You shouldn't get broke to one pair in an unraised pot because people could have anything really. I think raising a small amount is about the worst thing with the AA's, although when I put in a pot sized raise and everyone folds, which does happen, I always think "oh man, I should have raised lower". However, the times you are going to win a big pot with AA's are when you get in there against KK's-JJ's or AK, so if nobody has much to call you with, winning a small pot is better than a bad beat when the BB flops two ragged pair. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, noiseboy, 29. Oct 2003 10:24 | ||
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| BTW, when it gets raised a very small amount, your thinking should be along the same lines of "I don't want to get broke in a nothing pot". A small raise doesn't limit the field and people could have just about anything. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, KJo, 29. Oct 2003 17:34 | ||
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| I'd put him all in just cuz he pissed me off betting into me- how dare he bet into my aces? But that's me. Anyway, a $30 bet, in a $100 game, in his opponent's first hand screams "don't call." A "don't call" bet is likely a pair of queens, possibly with the flush draw. Yes, it could be two pair, that's a chance you take. Doubt it's a set. Keep in mind that your small pre-flop raise (which like the others I didn't like) did help you a bit here- I highly doubt he read you for aces or kings, so he felt somewhat safe putting in the big bet. I go over the top and make him decide how much he likes his queen. Eli on 29. Oct 2003 06:41 JonnyC wrote: > Alright I'm playing NL 100 dollars and in my first hand I get AA in MP. I > double the blinds when its checked to me, and get two callers, someone in LP and > someone in the SB. Flop comes 5d6dQc. The SB bets 30 dollars. Is the proper > move here to go all in or to fold? I knew nothing about this table and about > the player who bet. I ended up folding, which is always tough, and which is why > im writing this. Thanks for you help > > Jon | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, mroban, 30. Oct 2003 09:20 | ||
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| If he had a set he would probably slow play and go for a check raise on the turn most likely. But with the flush draw on board he could make a huge raise to make the flush draw pay big to get there. | ||
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| Re: Folding AA in NL, tron, 29. Oct 2003 21:13 | ||
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| hi, I would make a decent size raise just to find out where he is. From there u can tell if you go all in or fold. | ||
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