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Server Time: 11/23/2008 5:56:04 AM PACIFIC |
 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, csi, 27. Oct 2003 13:14 | ||
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| Hi all, I was playing in an average 20-40 game online and I was in the SB with 77. An early position player limps, and a late position player raises. I fold, BB calls, and EP player calls. Flop is 9h 7h Kd. As it turns out I would have won a decent pot and the BB blind ended up winning top Pair with KTo. The pre-flop raiser had ATo. I figure it's a no brainer for me to dump the hand preflop like I did because there's not enough players committed to the flop and I don't know what the BB is going to do. Also, I know playing medium to low pairs up front will cost you dearly in the long run. Anyway, I just wanted to get some feedback because this does happen occasionaly and maybe I should be looking at the flop more often with these hands?? What do u think | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, PairTheBoard, 27. Oct 2003 13:43 | ||
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| I think it depends on how serious I think the raise is. And the EP limp as well. I'll probably be getting about 4-1 pot odds on my call. If the only way I can win is to flop a set then I'll need to get paid off better than 2 more BB just to match my odds on making the set. That is a little iffy. But, if I think the raise is not that serious - a frequent raiser and loose EP limper, then my 77 has a good chance of holding up unimproved. The flop can hit me in two ways, either with the set or with a lot of junk that misses high cards. Plus, a junk flop may very well give me straight chances. If the situation is right, I think it's worth the call. I might even throw in a reraise some of the time. 77 is the bubble though. I would not go with 66. jmo | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, LJH, 27. Oct 2003 14:02 | ||
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| CSI, YOU MADE A BIG MISTAKE. FORGET ABOUT BEING IN FRONT AFTER THE FLOP. IF YOU DID NOT GET THE 7 ON THE FLOP YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN OUT OF THERE. YOU HAD GREWAT ODDS TO CALL, AND IMPLIED ODDS ALSO. LJH | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, noiseboy, 27. Oct 2003 14:17 | ||
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| I think you can call there, as long as the limper isn't one of those frequent limp/reraisers who likes to get cute and play slow with the big pairs. The button and the limper don't necessarily have great hands, and if the flop comes ragged, your sevens might start to look pretty good even if you don't flop a set. Ask yourself what you know about the raiser is he a tricky player? How many hands would he raise on the button in this situation? If you think the limper is on a drawing hand and that the button might be out of line, a preflop 3-bet might even be in order to knock out the blind and limper and get heads up with the button, who may not have anything great. Anyway, play from the SB is one of my weak points, so I'm just throwing out some ideas here. | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, ADAM THE EXPERT, 27. Oct 2003 14:31 | ||
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| ok, Since I have just received a MESSAGES AND requests from several fans of Adam the Expert, I will try again to give extremely VALUABLE advice, to the pokerlorn. BUT, IF U.P.F. DELEATES ALL MY FANTASTIC POSTS EVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN, WILL I GRACE THIS SITE, WITH MY GENIUS. OK, CSI, THE FIRST THING YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, THAT PLAYING ONLINE, IN NOT POKER, IT'S "INTERNET POKER" THE CONVENTIONAL WISDOM, THAT APPLIES TO "NORMAL' 20-40 HOLD EM, IS COMPLETELY THROWN OUT THE WINDOW!!! THROW AWAY POCKET SEVENS, WHAT, ARE YOU NUTS!!!!! 77 IS A VERY GOOD HAND, IN INTERNET HOLD EM. PEOPLE RAISE WITH ALL KINDS OF BULLSHIRT HANDS, LIKE A 4 Q3s EVEN 103s, AND YOU WANT TO THROW THIS AWAY, AND FOR 25% OFF SALE ! ! ! ! WHO CARES WHAT THE BIG BLIND DOES. YOU DON'T THROW AWAY A PAIR OF SEVENS, BASED ON WHAT THE BLIND MAY DO, THIS ISN'T NO LIMIT. IF ALL FOUR PLAYERS PUT IN FOUR BETS, YOU DON'T LIKE IT, BUT IT'S FAR FROM A HORRIBLE SITUATION. REMEMBER, PEOPLE WAY WAY WAY WAY OVERPLAY THEIR HANDS, ON INTERNET POKER, SO THE IMPLIED ODDS, ARE MUCH HIGHER. YOU WERE GETTING 110-30, OR 3.66 TO ONE POT ODDS. OF COURSE, THE ODDS OF FLOPPING A SET, WERE RIGHT AROUND TWICE THAT, BUT GOING BY JUST THAT THOUGHT, FAILS TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT, TWO VERY IMPORTANT THINGS: oNE: YOU DON'T ALWAYS NEED A SET, WITH A PAIR AS HIGH AS 77. THEIR ARE PLENTY OF ONE OVERCARD, STRAIGHT DRAW, AND PAIR, PAIR, LITTLE ( 5 5 2 , 8 8 3) FLOPS, WHERE 77 IS THE LIKELY WINNER. UNLESS YOUR PLAYER NOTES, CLEARLY STATE THAT THE ORIGINAL RAISER IS AN OPOR, (ADAMESE FOR: OVERPAIR ONLY RAISER) 77 IS CLEARLY AT LEAST A CALL HERE, AND SOMETIMES A THREE BET. MAY AS WELL FIND OUT NOW, IF YOU'RE UP AGAINST A PREMIUM PAIR. TWO: FOR SOMETHING THAT WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY WIN, SHOULD IT HIT, TO ONLY LOOK AT THE CURRENT POT ODDS, AND NOT THE IMPLIED ODDS, IS A BIG MISTAKE. AS I SAID EARLIER, PEOPLE IN INTERNET POKER, WAY WAY WAY WAY OVERPLAY THEIR HANDS, SO YOU SHOULD FACTOR IN VERY BIG IMPLIED ODDS. IF YOU CAN'T PLAY 77, THEN PERHAPS IT'S TIME TO THROW IN THE TOWEL. YOU CERTAINLY DON'T WANT TO GO THE WAY OF BROOMCORN'S UNCLE (SEE DOYLE BRUNSON'S SYSTEM, FOR EXPLAINATION) OK, just read Lou Krieger's advice, to think that the issue of having ten or twenty dollars, in is the important issue, is not correct thinking. I think you should concentrate, on Noiseboy's, and My replies. But here's the most important point: (No offense intended) If you don't know EXACTLY, and INSTANTLY what to do, it that situation, then you really should not be playing 20-40 in the first place. REALLY. And Again, this is no offense. To be successful at this limit, you have to be like a TIGER. It doesn't stop to think, it just KILLS. The best players at this limit, have so much experience, talent and killer instinct, they know INSTANTLY, when to fold, and when to THREE BET. It sounds as though you're a thinking player, I think you would do better, at a low-blind no limit game. With blinds of ten and twenty, you just can't afford to throw every hand away, and play as tightly as it appears that you wish to. If you play a 2-4 blind, 400 maximum no limit game, you can play as tightly as you see fit. But not in 20-40. Those players, will eat you alive. And whatever you do, never let on, that you will throw away a pair of sevens, if that spot. Or, you will now be subjected to more frequent raises, by very poor hands, who know that you are not likely to defend your small blind. | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, Lou Krieger, 27. Oct 2003 14:32 | ||
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| on 27. Oct 2003 13:14 csi wrote: "Hi all, I was playing in an average 20-40 game online and I was in the SB with 77. An early position player limps, and a late position player raises. I fold, BB calls, and EP player calls. " It's worth a call in the big blind, though probably not in the small blind, unless you know something about your opponents that I don't. _____ Lou Krieger Raise your game with Lou Krieger, author of "Poker For Dummies" and five other books about poker, at Royal Vegas Poker http://www.royalvegaspoker.com/lou | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, noiseboy, 27. Oct 2003 17:01 | ||
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| Hey Lou, I think this is interesting. You state that in the small blind you should probably fold, but it depends somewhat on what you know about the players, but that it's probably worth a call in the BB. This seems very reasonable to me, because if you fold, you've only lost 1/2 SB, and people aren't as likely to see you as a weakie for letting go of the SB when it's only 1/2, as long as you are defending your BB well enough. I'm curious as to what is the lowest pair you would want in the given situation to play. If you change it to 88s or 99s, it gets tougher to lay it down. With 99s I think laying it down would definitely be a mistake unless the other players have tight starting requirements. However, in a 15/30 or 30/60, your play of the sevens might change because then you are in for 2/3 of a bet instead of 1/2. It seems like a small difference, but it changes things a lot. How much of a difference does this make to you? I think I'm definitely at least going to call and see a flop with the sevens in a 2/3 blind situation. The 3-betting play I mentioned would only be for the specific situation of the EP player being someone who tries to slip in with drawing hands out of position, and the button being someone who doesn't need much to raise a single limper with the advantage of the button. This isn't too far fetched since a lot of players limp with too many hands up front, and a good player will catch on and raise them with more hands when they have good position.. Anyway, just wanted to see what you think about this situation when you have a larger SB. It seems harder to just let go of the 77s with the 2/3 blind. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 17:03 | ||
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| its unthinkable that someone would fold 77 in a online 20-40 game to one bet in the small blind. adam is right on about this | ||
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| Re: 20-40 Holdem Online - Did I make the right decision?, noiseboy, 28. Oct 2003 09:15 | ||
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| I don't think you should fold, but 77s is pretty borderline, and with an EP opener, a case can be made for mucking. Personally, I think I'd reraise if the button was a tricky aggressive sort who is probably raising because he only has one opponent who might be weak. It's a common tournament move to try to take away the pot from the limper, and I've seen people do it at my local 15/30 as well. Anyway, a lot depends on the openers standards and the character of the button player. If the button is fairly rockish, I'm probably outta there, because he's not making a move. | ||
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