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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:25:39 PM PACIFIC |
 Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 10:04 | ||
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| playing online lower limits just when do you feel you can check raise? personally i do it very rarely and only when i have a strong hand that can give a free card. to me i never feel comfortable enough that someone will bet to risk a free card. how do you *feel* when you think someone else will bet? reasons to want to chk raise get more money in the pot make it so someone doesnt have the correct odds to call 2 bets instead of just one these are the only 2 reasons i can think of to reraise reasons to bet no free cards, make sure insane draws have to put money in each round to pay for insane draws get more money in the pot i guess i look at it as gambling, you are wishing/hoping someone else bets and i thought the idea was to eliminate that as much as you can *again certain rare circumstances occur that your hand can give a free card relatively safely but so many boards offer flush and straight draws compared to ones that dont* *this question came up cause in other posts people have told people they dont think they check raise enough, i would think at low limits you would want to check raise very infrequently* | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 10:13 | ||
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| I check raise quite often, In early position I can often tell rather quickly if someone will bet for me based either on the type of players (ie will always bet from the button) or preflop action. I like the check raise here as it puts two bets to everyone who checked. On the times that it checks all the way around, I do miss out on some bets but that too is useful information. Now I am putting a big bet to everyone and my hand is well disguised. I don't think getting drawn out is something that should be given too much weight. Its going to happen all you can do is be alert, maximize when you have the best hand and minimize when you don't. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 10:14 | ||
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| One other thing, check raising often will also get you needed free cards about as often as you inadvertantly give them to your opponents. Big Slick is a good example | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 10:23 | ||
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| i should also say that never or almost never checkraising is a sign of weaktight/weakpassive play and i look for people that dont checkraise a a sign of that type of player to use in my table strategy. if you always bet out your strong hand when i have postion on you and never checkraise for deception, i of course will notice that and use that info. i dont think thats a good thing | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 10:19 | ||
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| i disagree. there are situations where its the best play, although it should not be overdone just like anything. never checkraising or almost never is a hole in someones game to me, even in 1-2. if you are in early position with a strong hand and there are 6 left to act and if this is any kind of low limit game ive played, its almost certain someone will bet. but aside from that assumption, if there was a preflop raiser and he always bets out the flop, or maniacs that will bet for you, you need to have the checkraise option in your arsenal to be the most effective in a particular situation. simply not checkraising when the situation requires it because of a fear of losing a bet doesnt make sense to me. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 10:38 | ||
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| ummm maybe im missing something, to me its an either or thing, either you bet out or you check raise *what im asking about at least* what im asking is how hard do you have to hit the flop, how soft does the board have to be *lacking straights and flushes or whatever* how many opponents your options are check with 100% intention of raising if someone *single* bets* or bet out no other option enters your head on this hand *so obviously im not talking about chk raise bluffing* example of what im talking about 4 players see the flop you hold AQo flop is QJ3 rainbow or double suited *does this make a difference to you?* your first to act you know nothing about your opponents cause either players are shuffling in and out to fast or you just got there, im talking a generalization remember this is low limit poker where people play any 2 cards, im more concerned with winning the pot at this point than hoping to extract more money. i realize to a degree im taking Sklanskys losing a pot you should have won is a catastrophe statement a bit far but where is the line at which you draw? | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 10:48 | ||
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| It would depend a great deal on if I raised preflop and which players called. But that could be a decent check raising opportunity. I think you are leaving out 1 other factor. Many times your opponents especially in LL have predetermined their actions. Meaning they are going to call or fold regardless of what you do. While you can't control whether or not they make their flush of if some garbage hand makes 2 pair you can take action to win as much money as possible. You most likely will not be able to take down that pot right there but you can make the middle players on draws or with garbage make a mistake or larger mistake but commiting two bets instead of one. You should play that example as if you have the best hand and that you are going to win (the best hand does win more times than it gets drawn out on) until you have information otherwise. Perhaps "knowing" when to check raise is one of those situations where you listen to your instinct. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 10:51 | ||
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| i generally checkraise with top 2 pair or trips, or perhaps top pair with a huge draw, like to the nut str or nut flush. if your not doing this then your not only losing bets and not charging enough for the drawers and not being aggressive enough to possibly eliminate players with marginal holdings that would call one bet but not 2, and would also fold being inbetween the checkraiser and the orig. better for fear that it will be 3 bets back to them. if you bet out with 4-6 players to act they all call, lets say, and youve done nothing to thin the field and given them proper odds to call one bet with a hand that may improve to be better than yours on the turn. you dont want 5 people calling 1 bet, you want a couple or less calling 2-3 bets when you probably have the best hand on the flop. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 11:17 | ||
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| i guess im trying to find this *leak* and fixing it, i understand that once you get neough people in the pot someone should probably be betting, my problem *i think* is knowing when i have hit the flop hard enough that giving a free card *which means any hand can beat me cause they can all stay in for free* is less valuable than making a bet right then and making them have incorrect odds to call. maybe im missing something things i think i think im in the lead *im not talking pots where you dont think your in the lead as thats a whole different topic* if i bet right now i 100% for sure positive no question make any and all players who are behind me call at least one bet if they want to win this pot. if i check i hope someone else bets so i can maybe get to charge people who are behind 2 bets which they might fold to instead of the one bet they might have called had i bet. maybe i check raise enough but from what people are posting here it seems like looking for reasons to check raise (a fancy play) is higher priority than betting out and playing straight forward poker maybe im misunderstanding what others are advising but when someone just randomly posts so and so you need to check raise more thats what i get from the post | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 11:37 | ||
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| If you are talking about the post in which pokertracker stats were used then you should know that was an extreme situation in which the player was check raising close to 0% of the time. Thus the simple answer of "check raising more" is sound advice to begin with. This is beginner level hold-em. What I believe you are after is advanced level hold-em which is knowing the how to maximize your profits using check raising. You already check raise some but wonder if you should be doing it more. An easy answer is you should check raise 37.8% of the time. Mind you I just made that number up about 1/2 a second before I typed it but hey it could be right. I can garuntee that NO ONE can give you a more accurate % to use. This is because there is NO hard fast rule about check raising. If you think you are not using it enough try using it more and learn from your experience. The one thing I do not like is your what seems to me atleast preoccupation of getting drawn out on. Yes it will happen and you should be aware but realize that the check raise IS an effective tool to PROTECT your hand and not simply and offensive play. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 11:48 | ||
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| ahhhh maybe im getting somewhere with your help, yes alot had to do with the poker tracker post but had seen the suggestion elsewhere/before without tracker. im just looking for general rules of thumb to use my fear of getting drawn out on is from personal experience and the math, im not worried about the insane draws, my concern is the legit draws where your choices are draw for free, charge one bet even if they have the correct odds to call, they only get their X% of the time or maybe if you get lucky *the stars are prefectly aligned and your in the perfect position and just the right person has the hand that can/will be bet* you can make it so they dont have the correct odds by a large enough margin that implied odds dont make it worth a mathmatical call by making your check raise. again maybe im focusing too much on a specific type of hand/situation that should just about always be bet *to me* and im not seeing others but to me this situation occurs much more frequently than other situations i can think of where a check raise might be right | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 11:59 | ||
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| playing afraid is much more of a problem than the issue of checkraising in general. you seem to have the weakietighties and it may be apparent in other areas of your game. i would guess based on your checkraise post that you probably dont raise enough in general and probably re raise very rarely. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 12:37 | ||
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| seriously doubt anyone would call me passive, overly aggressive maybe but not passive, one thing not mentioned by risking a free card you also let in runner runners cause they never had to pay to see the turn now they get a draw that they get correct odds to call and beat you when any kind of bet at all would have chased them out. my basic theory is if i have to choose its a coin toss no side is yelling im better than the other then ill always bet out cause id rather win the pot there or whatnot than take a chance someone gets a free card and gets infinate odds to draw | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 12:39 | ||
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| you still dont get it. sigh | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 12:40 | ||
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| and I AM calling you passive. you never checkraise, you are passive as heck | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 12:03 | ||
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| I believe the general rule is that you have to be sure someone will bet and probably when in doubt bet out. I like the EV approach myself. There is always a danger of giving the free card yes, but perhaps one way to look at it is that in those situations when you get drawn out on would a bet out have changed anything. Probably not, those players most likely would have called one bet either way you lost. On the other hand if you attempt a check raise sometimes you will give the free card and get beat but like above this was not in your control. Also sometimes you will check raise and they will call two bets. Here odds are on your side yes you will sometimes lose the extra bet but more times than not you have made yourself an extra bet. Also sometimes they will not call two bets and fold a hand that would have outdrawn you thus you just made alot of extra money by check raising. As you can see from above while check raising does have the one extra detraction that betting out doesn't, it also has a couple of added benefits. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Flatout_Mainiac, 27. Oct 2003 13:34 | ||
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| Exactly, how many times does your checkraise make it incorrect for someone to call with a draw, they call anyway, and then they hit their draw. Sometimes it feels like every time (but we all know over the long run this isn't the case). It still make the checkraise the correct play because one of the basic fundementals that I have been taught about this game is to make your opponents make mistakes like calling when there are insufficient odds to do so even if it is just barely insufficient odds to make that call...because in some weird, barely detectable way, you are getting the best of them over the long haul. I think of it like this when it comes to getting opponents to getting take slightly worse than correct odds to make a decision. If you can get the best of it by skewing you odds over your opponents by .03 bb you would hardly notice it in a given hand, your opponents will never notice it. But add that up over the course of 1,000 hands and that slight advantage is now 30 BB. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 12:05 | ||
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| i should also say that if you are not good at reading players betting tendencies and playing styles then you will have major problems checkraising effectively. if you cant find more then one time to checkraise in 100 hands, then you need to improve this part of your game without a doubt. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Flatout_Mainiac, 27. Oct 2003 12:19 | ||
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| I am sure it has been said in this thread so I apologize if it has been repeated. One nice feature of being known at the table as a check raiser from EP is that it might allow you to get free cards in early position when you need them in future hands. A button that has been trapped by you once or twice by a well played check-raise might think twice about betting when a flop is checked to him when he has a weak hand thinking that you might be setting up again. I also think the check-raise is the most powerful way for one to take control of a hand from early position....and being in control is a good thing. If you always lead out with strength and check with weakness your betting becomes a very predictable tell for those playing behind you. Also, on the flip side, if you are always check raising then you aren't going to get the action you need to make the play work the way you want it. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Roy Cooke, 27. Oct 2003 10:44 | ||
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| Hi Mark Check-raising is a powerful tool. Many players will automatically bet the flop if they raised pre-flop, check-raising them is something you should do to them often. It takes away some of their value of aggression and it is a positive play as far as you are concerned with adding value to your hand. Check-raising has even more value if you can cutoff the field by check-raising with many players to act behind you when your hand is vulnerable to being drawn out on. I do not think check-raising should be a rare play in your poker game. You should check-raise in situations that have a high propensity for someone to bet behind you (Unless your hand is NOT vulnerable to free cards). If you think it unlikely they will bet, you should lead into the field with hands that are vulnerable to free cars. Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 27. Oct 2003 10:04 Mark Barnett II wrote: > playing online lower limits just when do you feel you can check raise? > personally i do it very rarely and only when i have a strong hand that can give > a free card. > to me i never feel comfortable enough that someone will bet to risk a free > card. > how do you *feel* when you think someone else will bet? > reasons to want to chk raise > get more money in the pot > make it so someone doesnt have the correct odds to call 2 bets instead of just > one > these are the only 2 reasons i can think of to reraise > reasons to bet > no free cards, make sure insane draws have to put money in each round to pay > for insane draws > get more money in the pot > > i guess i look at it as gambling, you are wishing/hoping someone else bets and > i thought the idea was to eliminate that as much as you can *again certain rare > circumstances occur that your hand can give a free card relatively safely but so > many boards offer flush and straight draws compared to ones that dont* > > *this question came up cause in other posts people have told people they dont > think they check raise enough, i would think at low limits you would want to > check raise very infrequently* | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 10:53 | ||
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| better said than me... | ||
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| Re: Check Raising...Q back to Roy, mkpoker, 27. Oct 2003 10:54 | ||
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| on 27. Oct 2003 10:44 Roy Cooke wrote: You should > check-raise in situations that have a high propensity for someone to bet behind you > (Unless your hand is NOT vulnerable to free cards). If you think it unlikely they > will bet, you should lead into the field with hands that are vulnerable to free > cars. > I entirely agree with the above, but what about situations where the anticipated action is more ambiguous. For example, in a CR situation, what would you do if thought there was a 50% chance of a bet behind you...or a 60% chance? In these situations, I'm probably betting out. I'd need to feel very sure (maybe 75%+) that someone will bet behind me to attempt a CR. Fundamentally, I'd rather make a mistake that costs me 1 SB on the flop (by betting out when a CR might have worked) than make a mistake that gives someone a free chance to draw out (when I check and it's checked around). Your thoughts? ---matt P.S. I'm about 1/2 way through Real Poker II: Play of Hands and am learning from it quite a lot. I'm very impressed by the way you (and other pros) "see the whole field" when making decisions. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising...Q back to Roy, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 11:05 | ||
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| This is just speculation on my part so feel free to disregard but I seem to remember from a operations management class that you examples can be handled like this. Let's assume the worst that everyone calls regardless so the only difference is your EV there is a 50% chance somewill bet if checked if you bet you get 1 bet for every opponent 100% of the time thus, EV = 1 * 100% =1 /per opponent if you check it is 50% EV = (2 * 50 %)+ (0 * 50%) = 1/per opponent Thus you are not giving up any EV by check raising and you still get the other benefits previously mentioned. 60% EV = (2*60%) + (0 * 40%) = 1.20/per opponent Thus not check raising most likely incorrect You can easily extrapolate this for each opponent including the chance of folding and its effects on winning the pot | ||
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| Re: Check Raising...Q back to Roy, Roy Cooke, 29. Oct 2003 08:41 | ||
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| Hi Mk If there is only a 50% chance that your opponent will bet, then check-raising has lost much of its value. If you should still make the play depends on how vulnerable to your hand being drawn out on and how checking will influence the way the hand plays in the future. Assigning value to the check-raise is NOT just dependent on the propensity of your opponent to bet....Will he call the raise? If you bet will he raise and you can get in three bets? Will he reraise without a hand? What information about your opponents hand will you gather by betting?, By check-raising? Life is Good :-) Roy Cooke on 27. Oct 2003 10:54 mkpoker wrote: > on 27. Oct 2003 10:44 Roy Cooke wrote: > You should > > check-raise in situations that have a high propensity for someone to bet behind you > > (Unless your hand is NOT vulnerable to free cards). If you think it unlikely they > > will bet, you should lead into the field with hands that are vulnerable to free > > cars. > > > I entirely agree with the above, but what about situations where the anticipated action > is more ambiguous. For example, in a CR situation, what would you do if thought there was > a 50% chance of a bet behind you...or a 60% chance? In these situations, I'm probably > betting out. I'd need to feel very sure (maybe 75%+) that someone will bet behind me to > attempt a CR. > > Fundamentally, I'd rather make a mistake that costs me 1 SB on the flop (by betting out > when a CR might have worked) than make a mistake that gives someone a free chance to draw > out (when I check and it's checked around). Your thoughts? > > ---matt > > P.S. I'm about 1/2 way through Real Poker II: Play of Hands and am learning from it > quite a lot. I'm very impressed by the way you (and other pros) "see the whole field" > when making decisions. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 11:36 | ||
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| ok maybe its how i play or something but your situation *as im reading it* doesnt occur very often for me. preflop gets raised by someone other than me i think im in the lead after the flop enough people in the pot to think someone hit something on the flop or had before the flop i didnt have position to raise preflop *as i assume people are aware enough to realize a raise before the flop means something* somehow my hand is disguised enough that someone will still be willing to bet even though i think im in the lead *ties in with no preflop raise* i might get all of the above once in 100's of hands im fully aware there are situations where check raising is powerful and some involve draws or hands you dont think are in the lead but my questions have more to do with the above since they are much more frequent *at least the sure seem to be* again im only seeing 2 reasons to check raise get more money in the pot make someone fold who would have called a single bet but wont for 2 as for the person who posted the odds needed, yes 50% is easy to figure out but my problem is im almost never 50% sure/think someone else will bet my thinking is real simple you have a hand you think is best someone has a openended or a flush draw they have the correct odds to draw calling one bet but dont for 2 *rare from what ive seen* i can always charge them 1 bet to draw or i can take a chance they will get to draw for free, i know darn well which side if the coin i want to be on in that situation *ill take the free draw all the time* again maybe im focusing on the wrong area maybe i check raise enough cause i do check raise when things not like the scenario above occur its just the above scenario occurs alot more often for me *or so it seems* | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Aisthesis, 28. Oct 2003 15:43 | ||
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| Relating to Mark's last comment, I see at least 3 advantages to check-raising: 1) It makes you less predictable and hence less easy to read. If you check-raise frequently, then when you check on the flop, other players know much less about your holdings. 2) It should also make people less inclined to try to buy pots--at least it definitely does for me: If I'm sitting in late position with a checkraiser still in the hand, I really think twice about attempting a pot buy and generally will just check unless I have at least moderately attractive holdings. 3) It indicates greater strength than just betting out. Basically, you're kind of telling your opponents: "I don't even care if you draw a free card. You still won't beat me." The disadvantage, of course, to check-raising is that you do allow draws if no one bets. I'm definitely going to start doing it more often myself just on high pair after the flop, which up to now I've almost always been betting out. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Mark Barnett II, 27. Oct 2003 12:02 | ||
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| btw thx for all responses, hopefully you understood when i said, you know nothing about the other players, you are going strictly by whatever you would normally do in this situation oh oh oh maybe this works what makes your CR sense tingle? *thanks spidey* what are things that happen before or at the flop that makes your CR flag go up some btw some of the answers i know and use im sure, im just trying to get on paper (virtual at least) some basic ideas down so if someone were to ask me i could give them a better answer than i currently could come up with | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 12:10 | ||
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| why would you want to pretend your in game where you know nothing about the opponent? its the most important aspect of checkraising properly. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 12:15 | ||
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| That's a good point I am certainly not going to check raise the very first hand I get from the BB with a table full of players I know nothing about unless I have a real monster and in that case I very well might wait for the turn and pure slow play. PIcking up who are the aggressive players shouldn't take that long though. I usually have 1 or 2 spotted before I even post my blind. | ||
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| Re: Check Raising, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 12:10 | ||
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| when I am in early position and more than a few callers ahead of me with top pair and I want to get rid of people I want to check raise. AQ with flop Q85. Here I want to go heads up with another Q and/or a flush draw (I will win more times than not) but I want to prevent someone with a A or K or underpair who perhaps stayed in on my preflop raise from seeing the turn for 1 bet. | ||
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