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Server Time: 12/2/2008 12:48:48 AM PACIFIC |
 Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, mkpoker, 25. Oct 2003 22:17 | ||
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| Here's another hand that cost me on my recent ugly streak. Unlike the hand posted below, which was pretty much bad luck, I feel I played this one pretty badly. We're at the same 5/10 HE game online that's described below. It's loose and aggressive with players routinely overplaying their hands. In the BB, I'm dealt 87o. Two folds and a solid player raises. Three callers to me and I reluctantly toss in another nickel (a mistake?). The flop comes 7d5c2s, giving me top pair, lousy kicker. I figure there's a decent chance I'm ahead here, though I'm very concerned about overpairs. I bet out. The pre-flop raiser raises. A very loose-aggressive player in MP reraises. He's not a maniac, but he's close. I think for a moment and then cap the betting. I really want to put the pre-flop raiser to the test...I figure he'll only call an additional 2-bets if he has an overpair. I'm hoping the pre-flop raiser folds, isolating me against the semi-maniac, who I'm probably beating at this point. The pre-flop raiser and the semi-maniac call. So much for my great isolation raise plan. The turn is the 2c, pairing the board and putting a club draw on the board. Figuring I'm behind at this point, I check...and to my shock it's checked around. Now I'm totally confused. If the pre-flop raiser had QQ, KK, or AA, he'd surely have bet it. The river is Js [Board of 7d5c2s2cJs]. Thoroughly confused about what's going on, I check. The pre-flop raiser bets. The semi-maniac calls as do I. The pre-flop raiser had AK for ace-high only. The semi-maniac had TJo and made the winning pair of jacks on the river. He 3-bet the flop with absolutely nothing, leaving me shaking my head. Questions: 1) Should I have called the pre-flop raise in the first place from the BB, with 4 callers and 87o? Even in retrospect, I think this was the right play. 2) What do you think of my 4-bet on the flop. Too much? 3) Was my turn check a mistake? In retrospect, this was the real blunder on the hand. I had been showing super-aggression and then I suddenly took my foot off the gas. It was like raising a white flag. I don't know if my opponents would have folded to a turn bet, but I should have given them the chance, yes? All comments appreciated, as always. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Angel, 25. Oct 2003 22:57 | ||
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| mk, You can call with the 87o but what makes a 7:1 call profitable or not is how you play it post-flop. I very likely bet out as well and when it gets back to me I release the hand. In my opinion, you're floundering. You don't know where you are at in the hand and you're out of position and not likely to find out where you are at until it's too late. The call is 7:1 again and you are very likely dominated or a very small favorite. But you didn't fold - so let's look at the turn. I don't believe that they would have folded to a bet - neither one of them. You can't believe you are in the lead or that betting will do any of the things betting is supposed to do. You've helped make the pot too big for them to throw away for one bet in which they'll be getting 11:1. They need as little as 4 outs presently and implied odds make it possible that they need as little as 3 for a call to be correct. So you're stuck with em. I believe a check was correct. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, mkpoker, 25. Oct 2003 23:06 | ||
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| Excellent points, Angel. I appreciate your thoughts very much. Playing from the blinds been costing me quite a bit lately...in part because of hands like these, by which I mean hands that I ordinarily wouldn't play, but I play to the flop because of the low cost (or free play). I get into real trouble when (as in this example) I catch a piece of the flop and stick with it (floundering, as you correctly noted). Any general guidance for avoiding this kind of trouble from the blinds? Lately, I feel like I'd do better if I automatically mucked everything but super-premium hands from the blinds. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Angel, 25. Oct 2003 23:24 | ||
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| on 25. Oct 2003 23:06 mkpoker wrote: "I get into real trouble when (as in this example) I catch a piece of the flop and stick with it (floundering, as you correctly noted). " You're not alone here. Any general guidance for avoiding this > kind of trouble from the blinds? Lately, I feel like I'd do better if I automatically > mucked everything but super-premium hands from the blinds. I wouldn't hesitate to throw these away even for one more bet if they're giving you trouble. Again, I think that the hand is playable for one more bet - but so many people worry about pre-flop play when the real money (win or lose) comes post-flop. This isn''t to say that you don't need good solid pre-flop strategy; but once you have a pretty good grasp on it - don't sweat the close calls pre-flop and spend more time working on your post-flop game. ... got off on a tangent there... anyway, you do eventually want to be able to bring hands like these back into your arsenal - they can be played profitably and if you give up profitable plays then the a tiny piece of the volume times edge that Roy likes to talk about, falls into someone elses expectation. Just play along with the hands you're not in...concentrate on what the near maniac (and everyone else) 3-bets with when you're not in a hand so that you can act with confidence when you are. What's the solid player capable of having? I was playing in a $10/$20 NL game last week that fell apart and I found myself playing heads up against a guy who commented after about 30 minutes, how difficult it was playing heads up - because you have to concentrate every hand. I was actually enjoying the heads up match because it seemed like a break - I was concentrating on a whole table 3 hours earlier. One guy was easy. :) | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Candide, 27. Oct 2003 10:18 | ||
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| I used to hate these type of hands PF. And I would say you are a more experienced player than I mk (obviously Angel is), but my approach has been to take them cautiously until I get better with them. I like to either hit a straight draw or 2 pair, or I'm done with the hand. Situations that have cost me the most money are hitting top pair, or having the board make me trips (882 or something with 87o). I will play the trips for cheap, but I'm always mindful those 8's making someone else a boat later on. Perhaps more aggressive play at that point is warented, but at this point in my playing, I seem to loose way more than I win in those situations. 2 pair and straight draws, sticking with that, has made me win rather than lose money in the blinds (I don't count folding with just the cost of the blinds as losing anything in those positions). Jason | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Formless, 26. Oct 2003 07:22 | ||
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| Sounds like you found the answer to the problem. If playing from the blinds costs you money, then play less hands. If 87o is such an automatic call here preflop, then 86o can't be much worse, then 85o.....you've got to draw the line somewhere. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Aisthesis, 26. Oct 2003 10:04 | ||
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| I really don't think calling a pre-flop raise of just 1 BB is a mistake--one can go either way there no doubt, but frankly, I think it's probably a good idea to do it at least 80% of the time, particularly since it's the semi-maniac who raised it. I just don't think it's a good idea on general principle to let people consume a BB too easily. While on your other hand I really don't see anything I'd call a mistake, I think not betting the turn was a mistake here. True, overpairs are possible, but pockets pair up only about 1/15 times according to my calculations--not so rarely as to be dismissed as a possibility but infrequently enough to say it's fairly unlikely that one of your 3 opponents has one. I'd be interested to know in both cases how much relative to pot you were betting. Do you think betting out pot on the turn would have lost the J draw? | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Aisthesis, 26. Oct 2003 10:08 | ||
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| sorry, on re-reading the post I noted it was a solid player who raised pre-flop... that does indeed make it more attractive to fold since it's presumably not a BB buy. But I still really don't view it as a mistake. I think you can go either way. 87o isn't THAT bad a hand imo, at least not in the blinds. I'd call with it from the SB, too, if there's no raise... | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, worm, 26. Oct 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Ok i am new to this place, let me introduce myself. I am at the bottom edge of average player. I am ahead of the count playing at party because of the high amount of players at my skill level. i do not know that much and wouldn't lestin to anything i say. I refuse to play on sundays because i want this be work for me and not play, thus i am using this wonderful site to keep me off the tables. I apolagise for putting my 2cents in when it ain't worth a cent and a half. I believe in the theroy that calling a raise out of the bb is in your better intrest due to the fact your getting 2 to 1 for your money. your blind is lost and cannot be reclaimed if you fold. I also like betting on a low flop if someone raised because a raise usually denotes over cards. A flop under a nine is most likely right up a blind players alley. I'll bet the small bet out of the blind if i don't hit anything just to get a read of the raiser. seems to me the problem was with the maniac. you never know with theses people. they could have played under cards out of ignorance (thank you for not naming the maniac, it might have been me). i beleive i would have kept it a cheap as possible by checking the turn also. a pair of eights ain't that good, and they only way to tell if you could have run them off was to get a read on the call to your reraise. seems like it was one of them hands you just lose. the worst thing to do is dwell on it and let it cost you more than it already did. Did i mention i am an idiot? | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, McMonkey, 28. Oct 2003 06:04 | ||
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| On the subject: I think the cap was a stretch. If the "solid" player really is somewhat solid then he must recognize the fact that the maniac is likely to raise, so his raise bears a little more weight. This tells me that a cap is not going to push him off, not before seeing the flop at least. As for the rest of the hand, you were lucky to be in the lead as long as you were. Really you need at least 2 pair or better with this hand to continue. An 8 high flop is almost guaranteed to produce overcards or reasonable straight draws. With poor position and an even poorer kicker you need to get away from this hand. I think the times you win these hands with perfect post-flop play do not outweigh the times you will get beat, especially with a solid player in the mix. Maybe make a bet at the flop to see if he'll fold, but after that it's a check-fold situation unless your situation improves dramatically. Off the subject (to worm and others): There is merit to stating your prior experience up front. Nobody wants to give advice as if they were successful professionals when they are not, especially with real successful professionals like Roy, Mike C, grant, etc etc etc hanging around. That said, not even the most successful professionals are not always perfect and along the same lines even the newest poker player can offer valid points to a discussion, a new perspective. Even bad advice can be helpful when broken down and the reader determines for themselves just exactly why it is bad to begin with. So I guess what I'm getting to (in my own long, roundabout way) is that self-depricating comments in posts are not helpful to the original poster and may actually be harmful to you and your game. If you say something enough times, no matter how rediculous it is or how you say it, you will eventually start to believe it. And if you start to believe that you are a very bad player (among other things) you will have an even harder time of trying to improve your game. Besides, your advice was well spoken and logical, hardly the work of an idiot. Keep learning and keep posting. So ends my optomist rant of the morning :) | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, LJH, 26. Oct 2003 13:19 | ||
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| MKPOKER, I CAN'T SEE ANY SENSE IN YOUR CALLING PRE-FLOP. LJH | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, INSINK, 26. Oct 2003 13:43 | ||
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| LJH. I agree. I muck this hand .....trash is trash at any price! | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Snorbolus, 26. Oct 2003 16:23 | ||
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| Calling an early raise with 87o, from the big blind, after 3 callers seems OK to me, perehaps a little marginal but not too bad. If the early raiser has a big pair it is easy to imagine him paying you off when you hit your straight. With an aggressive table though there is more chance that you will have to dump a draw on the flop - or end up paying too much. Your early position will make things harder post-flop. When you hit only low top pair, worse kicker on the flop I think that you are usually best off checking with the intention of folding; given the loose, aggressive nature of the table. Perhaps the button will be first to bet the flop and you can check-raise to try and get heads up. The trouble with betting out is that you don't know what they might be raising with. You might be ahead now, perehaps not, you might still be ahead at the river but it is likely going to cost you lots of bets to get there and there is a lot that can go wrong before, if it hasn't already. In this case you decided to bet out. That seems OK to me (although not what I would have done), but I think that when it comes back to you for 2 more you really do need to see which way the wind is blowing and fold. Capping the flop did buy you a free look at the river but it may well not have done. My guess is that there was no chance your opponents would have folded to that last raise on the flop, and little that they would not have called again on the turn if you had bet out. Of course you were at the table and I was not so perehaps I am way off. Anyhow that is what I think. Hope your loosing streak ends soon. I know it will, Snorbolus on 25. Oct 2003 22:17 mkpoker wrote: > Here's another hand that cost me on my recent ugly streak. Unlike the hand > posted below, which was pretty much bad luck, I feel I played this one pretty > badly. We're at the same 5/10 HE game online that's described below. It's > loose and aggressive with players routinely overplaying their hands. > > In the BB, I'm dealt 87o. Two folds and a solid player raises. Three callers > to me and I reluctantly toss in another nickel (a mistake?). > > The flop comes 7d5c2s, giving me top pair, lousy kicker. I figure there's a > decent chance I'm ahead here, though I'm very concerned about overpairs. I bet > out. The pre-flop raiser raises. A very loose-aggressive player in MP > reraises. He's not a maniac, but he's close. > > I think for a moment and then cap the betting. I really want to put the > pre-flop raiser to the test...I figure he'll only call an additional 2-bets if > he has an overpair. I'm hoping the pre-flop raiser folds, isolating me against > the semi-maniac, who I'm probably beating at this point. The pre-flop raiser > and the semi-maniac call. So much for my great isolation raise plan. > > The turn is the 2c, pairing the board and putting a club draw on the board. > Figuring I'm behind at this point, I check...and to my shock it's checked > around. Now I'm totally confused. If the pre-flop raiser had QQ, KK, or AA, > he'd surely have bet it. > > The river is Js [Board of 7d5c2s2cJs]. Thoroughly confused about what's going > on, I check. The pre-flop raiser bets. The semi-maniac calls as do I. > > The pre-flop raiser had AK for ace-high only. > The semi-maniac had TJo and made the winning pair of jacks on the river. He > 3-bet the flop with absolutely nothing, leaving me shaking my head. > > Questions: > > 1) Should I have called the pre-flop raise in the first place from the BB, > with 4 callers and 87o? Even in retrospect, I think this was the right play. > 2) What do you think of my 4-bet on the flop. Too much? 3) Was my turn check > a mistake? In retrospect, this was the real blunder on the hand. I had been > showing super-aggression and then I suddenly took my foot off the gas. It was > like raising a white flag. I don't know if my opponents would have folded to a > turn bet, but I should have given them the chance, yes? > > All comments appreciated, as always. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, shorn, 27. Oct 2003 10:14 | ||
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| Mk- I like the preflop call. Your cards are most likely live and you are getting sufficient odds to play. However, I hate the cap on the flop. Betting out was fine, but I would have tossed it to two more bets back to me. You are only getting 13:2 or 6.5 to 1 for likely 5 outs against and over pair. And, even if an 8 comes on the turn, if one of the other cards paired (as happened), you get counterfeited. I think you have to assume yhat you are behind when it is 3-bet. I don't think you can say you are representing a set here either because you likely would have waited until the turn to raise again. You MUST check the turn when the 2 comes. This is the counterfeit card that you couldn't afford. And, when everyone shows weakness by checking the turn, I think you have to call the river. If they were just on overcards, it is much less likely that the Jack hurt you so there is a (small) chance that you are good. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Aisthesis, 27. Oct 2003 10:47 | ||
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| Yes, you are right. Folding to the 3-bet is the way to go. The solid player with the raise has probably got you beat and the semi-maniac is likely to make it very expensive to find out. | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Aisthesis, 27. Oct 2003 10:52 | ||
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| The absurd part of this whole thing is that in point of fact, you have them beat up until the river... | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o (I see this differently; wrong?), WilliamS, 28. Oct 2003 09:44 | ||
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| I'm playing devil's advocate on this one. (I am also looking at this hand with all the post play information which doesn't give an accurate picture of true play.) But, why in the world should he not have bet the turn? The turn card is a scare card for both the other players and he was last to show aggression on the flop. And in this particular instance (depending on unstated suits of opponents) he is leading and there are only 12 of 42 cards which beat him in the whole deck. So, if I'm figuring this properly he was a 30:12 favorite to win the pot with one card to come and with two callers with the added benefit of becoming a 36:6 favorite if he loses the maniac playing 10J + both of those players may have folded to the big bet on the turn. So, in hindsight with all the information I feel mk should have bet the turn instead of giving the free card. I also realize that at the point he made the decision he felt he was behind to the original "solid" raiser. Thats my take............way off base? Please tell me why Will | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o (I see this differently; wrong?), shorn, 28. Oct 2003 11:17 | ||
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| He shouldn't bet the turn because his read was that the solid player would not call the cap on the flop without an overpair to the board (which was wrong in this case, but that was the reasoning for the cap). So, the only cards IMO that he should bet out on the turn are an 8 or a 7. In effect, since he capped the betting, there was no real way to be certain that the solid player (who had raised) wouldn't have raised again on the flop if given the chance. So, betting the turn is asking him to raise it, and it costs you another bet to get to the showdown. Couple that with the fact that after the 2 hits, and 8 is probably no good anymore to anyone with an overpair to that board. If the solid player had bet the turn here after all that flop action, I probably would have mucked my pair of 7's. | ||
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| 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, mkpoker, 28. Oct 2003 12:52 | ||
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| Steve's post describes my thought process exactly right. I figured (wrongly) that I was way behind on the turn--probably to AA, KK, or QQ. I checked planning to fold. When the turn was checked around, I had to reconsider that earlier judgment, and with middle pair, I figured my hand was now worth a crying call. I was stunned to find that I had been ahead throughout the hand and had been "rivered" at the very end. This hand still vexes me. I think my pre-flop call was right. And even in hindsight, my thought process leading to capping the flop makes sense (although I certainly see why many posters argued for cutting my losses and folding to the 3-bet). Figuring I was way behind on the turn, my check was the logical play. Unfortunately, my read on my "solid" opponent was dead wrong. In fact, I was ahead on the turn and a bet could have won the pot there...or at least it would have made the draws pay to beat me. But even in hindsight, I don't see how I could have put both players on overcards only. (Immediately after the hand I beat myself up for checking the turn, but I now think that self-flagellation was a bit much). I'd love to get some perspective from our resident pros on this hand. Very much appreciate everyone's thoughts, also--this hand presented a lot of tough decisions, IMO. | ||
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| Re: 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, shorn, 28. Oct 2003 13:24 | ||
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| You can't beat yourself up for not betting the turn. The pre-flop solid player could have any pair down to 88 with that flop, so there are a wide range of hands that you can't beat in this spot. Frankly, if I were him, I would have bet the turn when you checked and then mucked an AK to a raise on the turn. I ralize that if you had bet it out, the solid player would most likely have folded, but the idiot maniac would have still called with his two overcards. Checking the turn here saved you one bet in the end and I think it is the right play. | ||
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| Re: 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, Schuster, 28. Oct 2003 14:07 | ||
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| The more I think about this hand, the more I think he should have bet the turn. When he caps the flop, he's really representing a set, and even if the solid player did have an overpair, he might have laid it down to a turn bet. The pot at this point is huge, and firing another bet could have won it for him. When the pot is this big, it's less important to worry about bets saved and try to win the pot. It's true the maniac still would have drawn out on him, but I think we all know the flaw in that line of thinking. After you cap the flop, you have to bet the turn in my mind. Of course, I agree with a lot of the others in that you should have mucked when it came back to you on the flop for 2 more bets. Lee | ||
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| Re: 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 05:53 | ||
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| Lee- I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree here. Based on the information that he has (and what appears to me at least be a very ugly turn call) where both players called his cap, I think betting the turn here is asking for someone to raise him at which point he would have to lay it down. In effect, his check on the turn after capping the flop would appear to me as an attempt to checkraise and therefore I am not surprised that it was checked around (not knowing of course that the other two held ka ka at this point). I would have viewed a bet as highly suspicious and I (with AK) would most likely have raised him out of the hand. I agree that the pot is big and generally you must do everything you can to win it there, but no one will fold to a bet here and the chances that he is behind are much greater than those that he is ahead, so I think he has to view his situation as drawing and not leading (especially vs. the solid player who cold called the cap). Against a good player with AK in this spot, a bet will more often than not end up causing you to fold the hand as if the AK is going to stay in the hand (and with the size of the pot, he has odds to draw to his six outer which he has to assume is good), he most surely should raise to try and eliminate the button player. To a raise, 87 has got to fold the turn (especially with the pair on the board) because now his only out appears to be another 7 since he is already counterfeited to an overpair if an 8 falls. I think the key here is that his position sucks. Even if he were in second position, I would like that much better because from UTG, there is no way he can force anyone out with either a check or bet. IMO, this more than anything is what potentially cost him this pot. In second position, he could be the one raising hoping that the lead bettor has only overcards and that he can fold off the button. Even if he doesn't improve, he probably increases his chances of winning by 20% or so by getting heads up. Frankly, I think the AK played the hand about as poorly as he could on the turn here. | ||
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| Re: 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, Schuster, 29. Oct 2003 10:52 | ||
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| Steve, I'm not sure I follow you. After he had shown so much strength on the flop, you'd raise a turn bet with just AK? He hadn't taken his foot off the gas yet. The check looks more suspicious to me than a bet would. If I were in the hand with AK, and someone capped the flop on me and bet the turn, I would muck. The odds are likely there for a 6 outer, but I wouldn't assume hitting would make my hand good. I'd very likely put mk on a set. I agree that he does have to fold to a turn raise though, but if it's checked around, he is going to call the river anyway. Why not throw the bet in as the aggressor? I think the big problem in this hand stems from the flop play. After you the flop is capped, he really has no idea where he stands, because everyone else is going to react to him after showing so much strength. There's not enough information to make a good decision about how to play the turn. I still think betting the turn is the way to go after the flop action, but the root of the trouble in this hand is the flop action. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the turn. It could go either way. Lee | ||
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| Re: 87o is a killer, Barry, Roy, Grant?, shorn, 29. Oct 2003 11:30 | ||
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| Lee- Fair enough. I see what you are saying. But, yes I would raise a turn bet if it came on the off chance that he was betting with top pair or that he was bettig with an overpair lower than Kings (which is likely given the fact that there was no preflop raise here). If I am going to stay with AK, then why not try to eliminate the button and get heads up? Additionally, this semi-bluff raise has the extra advantage of maybe getting him to fold a 7 or 88-99 which I would want him to do. Anyway, as i said in my other post, mk's biggest problem is his position in that he can't force the action in such a big pot on the turn. I would not assume that he would cap a set on the flop as three-way it is more likely that you would wait until the turn to put the raise in. Anyway, good discussion on this one and it is an example of why I love this game so much...multiple ways to handle every situation. Steve | ||
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| Re: Took my foot off the accelerator, 87o, Aisthesis, 28. Oct 2003 09:56 | ||
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| Just one more post to add to the confusion on the analysis of this hand: I remember someone saying (no doubt wisely) that in playing low cards they're really looking for 2 pair or better. Hence, my calculation of odds for getting 2 pair on any 2 distinct random cards: There are (50)(49)(48)/6 possible flops. Of these, (3)(3)(48) give you two pair. So the odds should be: (3)(3)(48)(6)/(50)(49)(48) = 54/2450, or approximately 2% (1/50) of getting 2 pair. Correct? For me, if I really need 2 pair to get in there, it would definitely mean folding more SB's than I currently do. But I'm still of the opinion that a low card flop on which one shows high pair is also worth SOMETHING... | ||
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