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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:32:36 PM PACIFIC |
 Too aggressive with top pair?, mkpoker, 25. Oct 2003 21:47 | ||
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| In the midst of a fairly nasty losing streak, I thought I'd post up a couple of my recent hands to get some feedback from my UPF pals. On this hand, I'm concerned that I played too aggressively (on the next hand (see next post), I think I had the opposite problem). We're playing 5/10 HE online. The table is loose and aggressive, with many players overplaying hands and taking garbage all the way to the river. From the SB, I'm dealt AdQd. There's a raise UTG by a loose raiser. 3 callers to me. I just call (a close choice between reraising and calling, but I decide to just call). The flop comes Qh8s3h. An excellent flop for me, though I'm a little worried about the heart draw. I bet. The original pre-flop raiser folds and both other callers call. I figure at least one is on a heart draw and I'm likely ahead at this point. Turn comes 3d, pairing the board. I wish that hadn't happened, but it's tough to figure either player for a 3. I bet out and am called by the EP caller. The MP player raises, which suprises me. Tough to figure what he's up to here...maybe a semi-bluff raise? Maybe he does have a 3? I call as does the other caller. We see the river 3-handed. River comes Jc, which busts the flush draw. [Board is now Qh8s3h3dJc]. I bet the river, and am called by BOTH players. The EP caller (non-raiser) shows AJ [can you believe he called a turn raise with a single A overcard?]. The turn raiser shows KK and takes the pot. Questions: 1) While it wouldn't have made a difference in this hand, do you think I should have reraised pre-flop? 2) Should I have reraised the turn? At that point, I was reasonably sure (thought not close to 100% sure) that I had the best hand, but was vulnerable to being beaten by a set of 3s or a set of 8s. 3) I'll be honest, it never crossed my mind that I might lose to an overpair. Did anyone else see that coming? All comments welcome...and check out the next post, too. | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, Angel, 25. Oct 2003 22:31 | ||
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| mk, I like the call pre-flop. I don't raise either in that position, I'm going to see a flop first. Leading at the pot is fine - I may have taken other action but it's a solid play particularly with the heart draw. I would agree with your assessment, based on the available information, that you are ahead. Incidentally, you caught a good flop - but I would stop short of calling it excellent. You have hit solid but I think of an excellent flop as one which leaves you slightly less vulnerable to flush and straight draws against 3 opponents. I really like the turn though and was surprised you wished it hadn't happened. I agree with you that it's tough to put either player on a 3. To determine what the MP is up to - I'd want more info on him. What I have is that he called 2-bets cold pre-flop and he didn't raise the flop. Not alot to go on to determine his tendancies but if that's all you have - I would simply fall into check and call mode here - which you did. Answers to your questions: 1) No 2) No (assuming I know nothing about this players tendancies) 3) It crossed my mind along with a dozen other possibilities when he raised but didn't stand out as a possibility - no. This just comes down to knowing your opponent - to be able to put KK in the range of hands he might have but in this case I believe calling him down was correct on the available info. I think many players would raise on KQ, QJ and even QT in that spot. If you think he fits into that category then you have to call. | ||
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| AQ is like nitroglycerin, Andrew W, 25. Oct 2003 22:35 | ||
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| This is how I define it now - I'm a newbie, no expert - but echoing what I;'ve read from many "experts" and "pros" - AQ loses a lot of big ones. Tonight, I blew two NL buy-ins on UB with AQ. One flop came JQx, turn was Q, I went all in, lost to pocket JJ. Another one, I got again, JQx - lost to pocket JQ. I guess it comes down to this: don't play AK like it's KK or AA, (this finally just sank in for me) - and don't play AQ like it's AK. I think of it now as a strong hand that can win lots of small pots, and lose lots of big ones. The main thing I noticed in my own play was this: why, when I bet out on the flop, did it not occur to me that the other guy wasn't too concerned about me representing top pair with a good kicker? When he re-raised, I should have been out. If I fold to another AQ, so be it. Otherwise, I'm probably going to lose big. That's a newbie's run with AQ anyway. | ||
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| Re: AQ is like nitroglycerin, Bungus, 26. Oct 2003 10:07 | ||
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| losing to trip's when they have a pocket pair in the hole can happen to any hand. Even AA. This doesn't reduce the value of AQ | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, Formless, 26. Oct 2003 07:33 | ||
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| So you are at a loose aggressive table, you flop top pair ace kicker in early position and the preflop raiser acting behind you. Would it kill you to checkraise this hand? And does AJ call if you do? I checkraise in this spot just about every time because I know there will be a bet on the flop. On the off chance I give a free card, it just sets me up for a checkraise on the turn, and over 90% of the time a K will not fall on the turn so I'll still have top pair or better. | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, Aisthesis, 26. Oct 2003 10:21 | ||
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| Interesting option, although I don't see any "wrong" play on MP's part. As to myself, I probably would've played it about like MP, particularly with the flush draw out there. But particularly in the situation that MP is describing (being on something of a losing streak), switching into checkraise mode might be a good try for turning things around. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like this idea--not because of "wrong play" on the particular hand but as a good way to mix things up when one's own tried-and-true method isn't working. Might have ended up losing less money on this particular hand as well, depending on how things played out. | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, mkpoker, 26. Oct 2003 12:33 | ||
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| I'm not sure that I played this hand correctly, but I'm comfortable with my decision to bet out rather than attempt a check-raise on the flop. When I flopped top-pair top-kicker, I'm was reasonably sure I was ahead, and with an obvious flush draw on the board, my biggest concern was avoiding free cards for those on a draw. (Of course, as it turns out, I wasn't ahead on the flop. I was behind to MP slowplaying KK. But given the information available, I think it made sense to assume that I was ahead). If I check to the pre-flop raiser and he holds AK or other big overcards, he very well might take the free card, hoping to hit on the turn. Anyone on the heart draw would also tag along for the free ride. That's the worst case scenario for me, and I'm not going to chance it unless I'm sure the pre-flop raiser will bet. You're right that a successful check-raise might drive out someone holding AJ, but that hand doesn't scare me at all. (I have AQ with my Q paired). AJ is virtually drawing dead, needing running jacks or to overtake me for trips or perfect-perfect for the nut straight. After the flop, I'm something like a 30:1 favorite over AJ (it's much closer if AJ has hearts and flush potential...but with a flush draw, AJ certainly wouldn't fold to a CR) This thread echoes an eariler debate on the board about check-raising in LLHE generally. I argued (and I still do) that in most cases, the risk of giving a free card (when the CR fails) outweighs the benefits of getting in an extra bet (when the CR works). For that reason, I rarely check-raise in LL, unless I have very solid grounds to believe that a bet is coming. | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, Aisthesis, 26. Oct 2003 15:49 | ||
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| You know, in principle I really agree with you for the exact reasons you state. And, as I say, I'd normally play the hand pretty much the way you did. Basically, I like to view myself as what I call "solid aggressive" player--not overbetting hands, folding as soon as I'm beat, but when I have high pair, almost always asserting it fairly strongly. But there are for the most part two types of players that I generally see making money: 1) the "solid aggressive" type, 2) what I like to call the check-raisers (Formless is obviously one). So, my conclusion is that both these strategies, played correctly, are fully legit. I just happen to like #1 better, as apparently do you. The solid aggressive type usually scares draws off before they get dangerous and doesn't lose much on lost hands whereas the check-raisers are a lot harder to read and, if they're good at it, can use that advantage to make up for the increased number of draws they allow. BUT... I wonder if another good way to cope with a losing streak in one's preferred style might be to switch to another style. I think I'm going to try it myself the next time I go onto a losing streak and just see what happens. | ||
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| Re: Too aggressive with top pair?, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 10:34 | ||
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| hmmm, I like the theory but I would have to fall on the side that says the worst time to make a change like strong aggressive to check raising is when your in the midst of a "card caused" losing streak. However if the bad run could be caused by "player caused" factors than I can see changing things | ||
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