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Server Time: 2/13/2012 10:05:10 PM PACIFIC |
 Is this a good fold?, Ostebovik, 25. Oct 2003 15:47 | ||
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| I was playing 4/8 pretty avg table at Diamond Lil's, local cardroom. I pick up KhTc in the BB and get to see the flop for free after 3 limpers and SB call. Flop comes Jh9c5h. SB checks, I check, MP limper calls (plays any A, suited or not, and a lot of suited connectors) as does retired grumpy rather loose button. SB then calls (knows how to play well but usually doesn't because he doesn't like to sit out) and I think about calling. I've got inside str8 draw w/ an overcard but the board is 2 suited and I don't like to draw at a str8 when the Qh puts a flush on board. so I've got 3 Q's and 3 K's to make a winner. I decided to fold as I didn't like my chances. SB told me I should have called that but I didn't agree. What do you guys think? was this a weak/tight fold? | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, modestmice, 25. Oct 2003 15:50 | ||
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| i would have folded for simular reasons | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, iceman5, 25. Oct 2003 15:55 | ||
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| Easy fold for me. The 3 K's that you are calling outs are very iffy. With 5 players in the pot, someone could easily have KQ or KJ or maybe even K9. I wouldnt give it a second thought. Fold. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, grant pittman, 25. Oct 2003 16:55 | ||
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| Wow!!! I would think a little more seriously about this hand before I mucked it. I do agree that the heart draw does make the hand dangerous to proceed against and it is easily possible that the king is not a winner either BUT the bettor is on your left and you get to see what everyone else does on the turn before you act. I realize this assumes that the bettor remains the lead on the turn betting which is not unlikely. If a queen rolls off on the turn you have reasonable position to trap the field with a check raise and if it is the queen of hearts you can check and see if there is a new bettor and proceed from there. I would also proceed the same way if a king came on the turn. It would be a much easier fold if someone new came to life with the turn being a king. Overall I think it is important to note your position here in relation to the bettor on the flop. The pot is offering you 8-1 and you may have 7 outs in the hand and as little as 3 but don't ignore what I feel are potentially juicy implied odds here!!!!! I think this situation is A LOT CLOSER than it looks at first. Just my thoughts. GRANT PITTMAN | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, Ostebovik, 26. Oct 2003 00:44 | ||
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| Grant... Interesting reply. I struggled w/ the decision to fold and even called time to think it over but in the end didn't feel a call was a good investment. granted I'm still learning the game and can't see all the possibilities. As an aside, the turn was a blank and the Qc came on the river. I watched w/ indifference or maybe feigned indifference as a rather large pot was pushed another direction. Again, I'm still learning and will one day figure this game out. Thanks for all your feedback. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, modestmice, 26. Oct 2003 07:25 | ||
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| Grant is a pro and can see opportunities like this one easier. But if your a new player, chasing gutshots is not what you should be doing on a regular basis. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, Barry T, 27. Oct 2003 01:02 | ||
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| Hi. Yes, Grant is good at seeing these opportuities. My\ay I modestly recommend an article by...ahem...me, that might help you look for them too. You can find it at: http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/tanenbaum03.htm BarryT | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, 4 POKER, 27. Oct 2003 01:58 | ||
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| Hi Barry. Great article, by the way. I just got through reading it and I feel that is should be a "must read" for everyone. Dave | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold? Thanks Barry and Grant, WilliamS, 27. Oct 2003 08:54 | ||
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| Barry, Great article. I know one of my largest leaks is acting too fast on a decision. You bring up some points I haven't been considering to this point. Obviously, position is something I have been taking into consideration, but not necessarily position relative to the bettor. Such as calling a marginal situation if the bettor is to your immediate left, versus to your right , or versus the button (being 2 to your right). (This statement is confusing but alludes to a situation in the article) This is obviously some advanced theory I've been missing and I really appreciate you guys (Barry and Grant) bringing these type of situations up. Thanks Will | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, Phish, 27. Oct 2003 12:13 | ||
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| Hi Barry, Just read your article and I have to say that I disagree with your emphasis on folding if you think you're behind (weaker kicker, lower straight etc). That advice presumes that your judgment is close to perfect. For a beginner, that advice can be great detriment to winning play. The problem is that we are very often wrong about what our opponent is holding. And to routinely fold a straight because you fear a higher straight when the pot is offering you 12 to 1 return is a recipe for being a sucker. This will become more and more true as one moves up in stakes. If you're playing in a predictable passive 3/6 game, that advice may not be too harmful. But move up to say 15/30 where you may find some guys playing their draws strong and you're liable to throw away too many best hands. Move up still to 50/100 or higher and you'll find guys who will actively take advantage of your tendencies and rob you blind. I remember Mason Malmuth writing an article (reprinted in one of his Poker Essay books) about the importance of having the psychological strength to make the big laydown. And then someone wrote a response (also reprinted in the same book) that brilliantly repudiated Mason's essay. I would advice everyone to read those two articles. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, Ostebovik, 27. Oct 2003 14:15 | ||
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| Barry, Thanks for the pointer to the article. Having just read that I am reminded, as I continually need to be, that coming from behind if saved for races and not for poker. I did feel relatively comfortable about my fold in the situation above but wanted to see if I could get another view. Thanks again. Gerard. | ||
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| Re: Is this a good fold?, Brian Starr, 28. Oct 2003 20:01 | ||
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| Ostebovik- is that the Diamond Lils in Seattle? If so, is the minimum age 18 or 21? Thanks. | ||
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