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Server Time: 3/21/2010 4:24:08 AM PACIFIC |
 frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 14:58 | ||
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| I started playing online poker with $50. I built this up to $1000 playing $1/2 and then $2/4 with hardly losing a session. Most of it was made playing $2/4. At $1000 I started playing $3/6 where I started losing. At $750 I went back to $2/4 and I got Poker Tracker so I have all my stats from this point on. At $300 I went down to $1/2 and at $75 I went down to $0.5/$1. I just finished losing the rest of it at that level today. I don't understand what I am doing wrong. I was hoping someone would be able to see something in my stats and give me a little guidance. Total Hands: 5,116 Vol. Put $ In Pot: 34.03% (1,741 times out of 5,116) Vol. Put $ In From SB 46.05% (286 times of out 621) Saw Flop All Hands 40.40% (2.067 times out of 5,116) this was 36.59% in the 3/6 game and 42% in $2/4 Saw Flop Not From a Blind 34.20% (1,314 times out of 3,842) Folded SB To Steal 48.39% Folded BB To Steal 46.67% Attempt to Steal Blinds 19.91% Won $ when Saw Flop 30.53% (631 times out of 2,067) Amount Won (or lost in this case) -$752.00 (WR/100 Hands: $14.70 -- Big Bets/100 = -3.02 Went To Showdown 35.66% (737 times out of 2,067) Won $ at SD: 47.22% (348 times out of 737) Raised Pre-Flop: 4.85% (248 times out of 5,116) Limp/Call Reraise PF: 0.08% (4 times out of 5,116) First Action On Flop After a Pre-Flop Raise: Raise: 8.87% (22 times out of 248) Bet: 56.45% (140 times out of 248) Call: 14.11% (35 times out of 248) Check: 12.10% (30 times out of 248) Check/Raised 0.00% (0 times out of 248) Fold: 0.40% ( 1 time out of 248) No Flop: 7.26% (18 times out of 248) Player Actions: Pre-Flop: Raise 4.8%, Call 32.82% ,Check 6.65%, Fold 55.73% Flop: Raise 3.49%, Bet 20.40%, Call 30.19%, Check 29.04%, Fold 16,88% Turn: Raise 4.01%, Bet 24.15%, Call 23.33%, Check 29.29%, Fold 15.78% River: Raise 5.65%, Bet 28.49%, Call 19.15%, Check 30.93%, Fold 15.78% When Folded Hands: No Fold 20.62%, Pre-Flop 58.97%, Flop 9.17%, Turn 7.31%, River 3.93% Folded To River Bet: 48.59% (189 times out of 389) Check Raises: Times 25 (Flop 20%, Turn 44%, River 36%) Here are some of the expected values I have for hands AA: 24 times, won %75, 1.78 BB/Hand AKs: 20 times, won %35, -0.33 BB/Hand (negative expected value on AKs worries me-although 20 times might not be enough data) AKo: 51 times, won 52.94%, 0.63 BB/Hand AQs: 17 times, won 41.18%, 0.65 BB/Hand AQo: 45 times, won 37.78%, -0.26 BB/Hand (big loser for me) AJs: 20 times, won 45%, 1.21 BB/Hand AJo: 52 times, won 32.69%, -0.06 BB/Hand ATs: 11 times, won 54.55%, 0.92 BB/Hand ATo: 61 times, won 29.51%, -0.54 BB/Hand (big loser) A9o: 46 times, won 4.35%, -1.10 BB/Hand (really big loser) KQs: 23 times, won 34.78%, -0.11 BB/Hand KQo: 43 times, won 25.58%, -0.68 BB/Hand KJs: 15 times, won 33.33%, -0.54 BB/Hand KJo: 44 times, won 38.64%, 0.53 BB/Hand (one of the few winners) KT-K9 suited or not were all losers QJs: 11 times, won 18.18%, -1.00 BB/Hand QJo: 39 times, won 28.21%, -0.50 BB/Hand JT lost but J9 won The only suited connectors that paid off A2, 98, 87 and 76 AKs, KQs, QJs, JTs, T9s were all losers All pocket pairs paid off except for 77 All off suited connectors lost except for 43o which I caught some straights with from the blinds and AKo won too. KQo, QJo, JTo were all losers If there are any other stats that would help let me know. Thanks! | ||
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| Re: frustrated, modestmice, 25. Oct 2003 15:18 | ||
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| i think the overall problem is your bankroll. 1000 is about a third of what you need for online 3-6. i would suggest 3,000 at least for a online 3-6 bankroll. for 2-4 i would suggest a simular amount (600bb) as far as the results, this i pointed out about a month ago that you dont raise enough, and that is still the case. no check raises in that many hands is very strange. you seem to be playing very weak tight and that is not good for online play at all. but really, those are just numbers and it would be very good for your development to post detailed hands for analysis here. i think you've just gone on a bad run and didnt have the proper bankroll to deal with the swings. but you could also try and change your style to be more tight aggressive and that will help things. | ||
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| Re: frustrated, MozMan, 25. Oct 2003 15:23 | ||
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| modest made some very good points here. At those levels, the games are very fishy, and you really need to be able to ride out the swings: that means a big bankroll. I'll tell you what else I think probably happened to you. You started to lose and that effected your play, aggravating the situation. This happens to everyone at some point. When it seems you are on a bad run, you start making more mistakes... not raising when you should, for example... because you become leery of missing completely. -Moz "That's excellent. We knew you'd agree. The companies will be very pleased." | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 16:41 | ||
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| Thanks. Actually looking back, I think I got up to that $1000 by being a lot more aggressive after following Modest's advice last time. Then I had a bad run of cards when I went to 3/6 and although I started out aggressive I became a lot more passive from completely missing a lot of flops with AK, AQ and losing a lot of money quickly. I was running scared at that point, calling AK when I should have been raising it. It just seemed that whatever I came up with someone would hit something better. A lot of the time that I lost with these hands it was to straights or flushes after I made top pair and I couldn't let it go. Do you raise hands like AQo, AJo? What if they are suited? I was pretty much just calling these all the time which I'm now thinking that may have been a mistake. How big of a role does position play in this? Is raising these in early position a good idea to try and knock people out? What about in late position if there are already a few callers? Raising probably won't knock them out. Do I raise late to build the pot or call can decide what to do after the flop? Thanks, I appreciate the input | ||
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| Re: frustrated, mrbishop, 18. Nov 2003 07:47 | ||
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| "Do you raise hands like AQo, AJo? What if they are suited? I was pretty much just calling these all the time which I'm now thinking that may have been a mistake. How big of a role does position play in this? Is raising these in early position a good idea to try and knock people out? What about in late position if there are already a few callers? Raising probably won't knock them out. Do I raise late to build the pot or call can decide what to do after the flop? " I'm new at Hold'Em and I'm jumping in late here, but I read Slansky's "Hold'em Poker" and this book addresses a lot of your questions. According to Slanksy, position is a HUGE factor in deciding which hands to play and how to bet. Also, it's clear after reading his book that AQo is good, but AQs is very strong and should probably be raised, depending on position and what the other players are doing, etc. You should probably get the book - it help your decision making. | ||
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| Re: frustrated, CRCarson, 20. Nov 2003 21:43 | ||
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| MrBishop? From Chessville??? | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Blade, 25. Oct 2003 15:30 | ||
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| I would say it seems like you are playing way too many hands. My guess would be your playing marginal hands out of position. Definently way too passive. The fact that you are up with 43o would indicate you are playing too many hands. Unsuited connectors should be pretty rare and maybe left for when you are a more experienced aggressive player. I wouldn't be too upset about going to zero, it can happen to anyone. The key is to be always improving. Also I think the run you went on to get that high may be indicative of somewhat loose play perhaps post flop more so than pre | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 16:11 | ||
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| I re-looked at the 43o and I actually only played it twice. Both times I was in the big blind. One time I hit the straight on the flop... the other time I folded it to a bet on the flop. I don't really play connectors that are lower than JT (maybe 89 or 9T in late position if suited) I'm not sure about playing too many hands. I lose a lot on things like ATo (in any position) Is this type of hand just too unplayable? I kept trying to tighten it up and I'm not playing ATo early. I'm just worried that if I tighten up anymore, it will be obvious that I have AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ or a high pair. I'm pretty much down to just playing these anyway. Is ATo just too risky? Doesn't cutting it down to just a few hands make me extremely predictable? | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Blade, 25. Oct 2003 16:29 | ||
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| Every one their own opinions but I don't play ATo much at all (SB, BB, Button with several folds). As for your concerns, I sometimes wonder if my opponents even bother looking at their cards let alone think about what I am doing. I would say at your experience, if your opponents were that observant it would be a sign to change tables instead of loosing up. Come to think of it, AJ is hand that should be played with caution IMO, instead of a call-any situation. I think tightening may also give you the confidence when you do play a hand to be more aggressive. With my play I have taken the approach of starting out extremely tight as I develope more experience I add more hands to my arsenal. I do this after a lot of studying about the particular hand, many simulations and practice with Wilson software with the hand from every position. This is most likely not realistic for most players but I think using the strategy of start tight and then loosen works best | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 16:43 | ||
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| Thanks | ||
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| Re: frustrated, iceman5, 25. Oct 2003 15:44 | ||
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| As Modest stated, these are just numbers but I would say that you are definately playing too loose and probably too passive. You saw the flop over 34% of the time outside the blinds. My stats are about 18% outside the blinds. You only folded ONCE in 248 times that you raised before the flop? Did you hit the flop every time? There is no shame in raising before the flop and then folding. Did you ever raise with JJ and then get a flop like AK8? Surely you didnt continue if someone else bet out did you? You won the pot 30% of the time that you saw the flop. My stats are 43%. Thats partly because I play tighter than you preflop. You went to showdown over 35% of the time and only winning 47% of them. You are staying with 2nd best hands and draws too long. I win about 55% of my showdowns. Again I have better starting hands because Im playing tighter and Im not afraid to fold what used to be a good hand but now is mediocre due to the flop not hitting me hard enough. I agree with Modest that your are playing too weakly. You have very few raises preflop and no check raises after the flop. You should be raising preflop with alot of hands when you are first in the pot. Again, you cant do this if you play too many weak hands. I dont use Pokertracker so I cant comment on the rest of those numbers which I dont think are that useful anyway. You will undoubtedly get advice from more experienced players than me, but I am averaging 3.1 BB/hr at the $1/$2. My numbers are higher at the $2/$4 but I havent played there enough to make a good judgement so I wont even mention the number. Hopefully this helps and I hope my post didnt sound arrogant because Im not. Im just comparing my numbers to yours. Hmmm..maybe I should get PokerTracker | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 16:24 | ||
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| on 25. Oct 2003 15:44 iceman5 wrote: > You only folded ONCE > in 248 times that you raised before the flop? Did you hit the flop every time? > There is no shame in raising before the flop and then folding. Did you ever raise > with JJ and then get a flop like AK8? Surely you didnt continue if someone else bet > out did you? Actually I probably didn't raise JJ pre-flop much unless I was in late position and only had a couple people in. The scenario was usually like this... I'd get AQo and a K or J would come out and someone would bet into me... and yeah I probably saw it until the turn or maybe to the river if they seemed like someone that is always betting into me. Thanks, it's good to hear successful peoples stats. | ||
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| Re: frustrated, iceman5, 25. Oct 2003 16:47 | ||
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| Each hand has different value in different situations. You said you dont raise much with JJ unless you are in late position. You should be raising with JJ in early position because people will be less likely to play QT or AT or 98s for a raise. The raise is more likely to get you heads up which is what you want with a hand like JJ. You have to restrict your self to AA, KK, KQ etc. You can play suited connectors if you are in late position and have multiple callers already. This is because these hands play better against multiple opponents. When I first started playing, this statement confused me. How can 98s beat 6 players easier than 2 players. It cant, but 98s can win with a str8 or a flush and when it does it will normally win no matter how many opponents you have, so you only want to play it when , if you win, it will be a big pot. | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 20:20 | ||
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| The problem with raising JJ in early position is in the games I play, I'd get 5 callers and then someone with A5o raising | ||
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| Re: frustrated, Palinya, 25. Oct 2003 20:34 | ||
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| on 25. Oct 2003 15:44 iceman5 wrote: > You only folded ONCE > in 248 times that you raised before the flop? Did you hit the flop every time? I think the problem is I wouldn't raise pre-flop with anything less than AA, KK or QQ.... and in that case, you can totally miss the flop and still not want to fold once the flop comes out. If I have AA in the hole, I'm not going to fold to a K coming up. Also with QQ I probably wouldn't fold due to a A or K coming up just because I want to see the turn card. This might be a mistake however. On a table without any real bluffers it might be better to just get out with QQ if K or A shows up. Anyway, I think my problem was more with never raising before the flop than it was with not folding after the flop... although chasing may have added to this situation. But you are totally right. The statistic is a little messed up. I should be raising more pre-flop and folding more when I miss it. Thanks, I really appreciate the input | ||
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| Re: frustrated, oboy, 25. Oct 2003 21:18 | ||
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| Sounds like you hit a bad run. One of things I do when I hit a bad run in cash games, is to play some multi-table tournaments. It gives you a chance to play a lot of hands with only a little money at stake. It helps me get back on track. | ||
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| Re: frustrated, kennycatkiller, 11. Nov 2003 17:58 | ||
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| You have collected a myriad of data which might be analyzed until the cows come home without learning a great deal. The single most glaring thing I noticed is that you see the flop approx 40% of the time. That is way too loose for most games. While seeing the flop cheaply (if you can do so) certainly affords you the opportunity to play more hands (and, let's face it--any two cards can win with the right flop). Unfortunately, all too often you catch a piece of the flop and decide to "take off a card" and, before you know it, you pay off on the river "for the size of the pot." My best advice is to tighten up! Good luck Kennycatkiller | ||
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| Re: frustrated, CRCarson, 20. Nov 2003 21:56 | ||
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| Okay...I'm playing at PartyPoker.com in 5/10 play money games, and I'm attempting to play a tight-aggressive game. I don't play many hands, but when I do, I go for it. Tonight, after 86 hands, I have seen 36% of the flops, win% if flop seen = 19%, won 54% of the showdowns I've been in and 6% of the hands overall. How am I doing? | ||
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