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Server Time: 8/21/2008 9:48:42 PM PACIFIC |
 Dont u dare call the River, Table Captain, 24. Oct 2003 10:11 | ||
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| Playing 6-12 at B&M. I sit down in MP and after the dealer has already dealt me cards asks if i am ready for a hand- I am now I guess. Ad8d not exactly a monster but I limp in after 2 in front of me 7 callers see the flop of 7d-9d-Js. I have flopped the only hand i can be comfortable with if I complete(nut flush) SB,BB and both EP players check, I check too I want all these callers in when i hit. Button bets and all call after checking(must be every draw imaginable out there(6-8;10-Q; QKd etc.) Turn card is Jd completing my flush and also making someone three jacks this is quite evident when after checking and calling the ep player bets out into the whole field. I study the table and decide not to raise and let the callers trail in behind me, this works superbly until the utterly disgusting 9s falls on the river(planned raise ruined). Ep bets out again I call everyone else folds.(every fiber of my being is screaming at me to not push that last 12$ into the pot). The sucker turns over J2o for the boat and I cant resist showing him and the rest of the table my turned nut flush. I have 2 questions for the pros. I payed him off on the end when i felt i shouldnt have, is this a leak or is this a call that MUST be made with the nut flush? second question; I never show my cards unless there is a showdown or i am called however I thought i should let this guy see how far behind he was. Bad Play? thanks Table Captain | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 10:16 | ||
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| i would haved raised the flop and the turn without a second thought. you may have lost J2 with the raises. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Table Captain, 24. Oct 2003 10:46 | ||
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| on 24. Oct 2003 10:16 modestmice wrote: > i would haved raised the flop and the turn without a second thought. you may have > lost J2 with the raises. > J2 is exactly the hand i want in there with my nut flush draw. Why would i chase off a hand that I will almost always beat if i make my draw??? | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 10:53 | ||
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| i understand your point, but i would still raise. on 24. Oct 2003 10:46 Table Captain wrote: > on 24. Oct 2003 10:16 modestmice wrote: > > i would haved raised the flop and the turn without a second thought. you may have > > lost J2 with the raises. > > J2 is exactly the hand i want in there with my nut flush draw. Why would i chase off a > hand that I will almost always beat if i make my draw??? ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 11:01 | ||
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| i have no idea what your talking about. you have 5 limpers in this pot. eliminating someone with J-2 is good, in fact if they all fold to your raise its good. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Blade, 24. Oct 2003 11:56 | ||
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| Modest it right on, with a pair on the board you no longer have the nuts. You want to win the pot right there anyway you can | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 11:58 | ||
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| ram and jam man | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Mark, 24. Oct 2003 15:24 | ||
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| > > J2 is exactly the hand i want in there with my nut flush draw. Why would i chase off a > hand that I will almost always beat if i make my draw??? Betting the flop can be more of a personal preference depending on the table and your image. I would bet the flop to pump the pot, but that's just me. On the turn you should have definately raised. You want to push out or charge anyone who can still redraw to beat you. Mark | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Mark Barnett II, 24. Oct 2003 10:39 | ||
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| ummmm on the river one jack 3 sevens 3 nines 3 dueces 10 outs sounds like a reasonable call to me *preflop is whole other ball of wax* final call one word ick, from the betting pattern throughout the hand i would fold, noone raises preflop, late player bets the flop | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Table Captain, 24. Oct 2003 10:51 | ||
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| on 24. Oct 2003 10:39 Mark Barnett II wrote: > ummmm > on the river > one jack > 3 sevens > 3 nines > 3 dueces > 10 outs sounds like a reasonable call to me *preflop is whole other ball of wax* > > final call one word ick, from the betting pattern throughout the hand i would fold, > noone raises preflop, late player bets the flop. I cant beleive with a full field of players like that that he didnt muck J2 on the flop, and even when he catches the third jack-if that was me i still couldnt be comfortable with my hand. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 10:56 | ||
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| im not concerned about him making the runner runner full house, table. im only concerned with playing the hand the way i like to play it. you can play it differently, but im just saying, i would be raising with the nut flush draw with all the limpers, and certainly raising it when i HIT the nut flush on the turn. that he rivered you doesnt matter. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Mark Barnett II, 24. Oct 2003 11:10 | ||
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| i was editing my post because i wanted to be sure of facts but didnt want to lose what i typed so i lost what i typed cause you replied ARGHHHHHHH ok he fubbled up on the call before the flop, he checked the flop and called a single bet with top pair *hard to toss that for most players* and the bet was from late spot *one reason to raise here* on the turn he now fires, what hands could he have that make much sense *of course any talk like this can always disolve into well he could have complete trash so lets ignore that* either he was slow playing a set he flopped, he flopped a flush draw also *very small % chance of this btw* or he has J weak kicker what hands could other players have that would be drawing dead to your flush on the turn that can call a single bet but not 2? and if they arent drawing dead to your flush you need to make them pay the maximuum to draw on the river with the betting i think the chances of him having the boat are so insanely high as compared to the flush i think your safe to fold here i think you should have bet on the flop you had a straight and flush and overcard draw, get people out of the pot give yourself more ways to win the pot if possible | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 12:12 | ||
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| your post is slightly confusing and hard to read | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Blue Sky, 24. Oct 2003 12:11 | ||
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| So basically you played Flop, Turn, and River wrong and now want to call the winner the sucker at the table...Time to re-examine your own post and learn from it. On the flop your in a multi-way pot with a bunch of limpers and you pick up the nut flush draw, an inside straight draw and the Ace overcard for a possible winner and you check....You better start betting with this many outs in the future. Another thought here...your trying to win this pot right?...Then win a BIG pot. Turn, your 2nd nut flush shows up and your call an EP bettor? Because the board has now paired you better fire at will right here. (more then likely the EP isn't going to lay down the trips but you have to do everything in your power to win right here.) River, the board double paired and you knew you were beaten but paid him off anyways and then showed your hand....Might as well invest in a neon sign to flash "take my money b/c I'm weak tight" I've seen some of your other posts and your a better player then this hand and I'm sure you already know this....think about the possible outcomes for not only your hand but everyone elses at the table and your going to win hands like this. Good Luck. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, 4 POKER, 24. Oct 2003 14:02 | ||
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| Hi Blue Sky, (actually, he turned the nut flush, not the second nut flush. He held the A8 of diamonds and the board was J-9-7 w/ the 9-7 of diamonds, and the turn was the Jd. He's already holding the 8d in his hand, so noone can have a straight flush here). Only QK of diamonds could possibly draw out on his 'flush' at the river if the 10d fell. Now of course, the board is paired on the turn, and the FH could be out there (or get there as well).......I'm just talking about flush vs. flush, that's all : ) 4P- on 24. Oct 2003 12:11 Blue Sky wrote: > So basically you played Flop, Turn, and River wrong and now want to call the winner > the sucker at the table...Time to re-examine your own post and learn from it. > > On the flop your in a multi-way pot with a bunch of limpers and you pick up the nut > flush draw, an inside straight draw and the Ace overcard for a possible winner and > you check....You better start betting with this many outs in the future. Another > thought here...your trying to win this pot right?...Then win a BIG pot. > > Turn, your 2nd nut flush shows up and your call an EP bettor? Because the board has > now paired you better fire at will right here. (more then likely the EP isn't going > to lay down the trips but you have to do everything in your power to win right here.) > > > River, the board double paired and you knew you were beaten but paid him off anyways > and then showed your hand....Might as well invest in a neon sign to flash "take my > money b/c I'm weak tight" > > I've seen some of your other posts and your a better player then this hand and I'm > sure you already know this....think about the possible outcomes for not only your > hand but everyone elses at the table and your going to win hands like this. Good > Luck. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, Blue Sky, 25. Oct 2003 10:32 | ||
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| Yep, You're right...I typed it in and sent it w/out re-reading his orig post and didn't think about the 8d in his hand...sorry about that. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, 4 POKER, 24. Oct 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Hi, Given your late position as well, I would have chosen to bet the flop right then and there. I know you were in MP, but all the players in front of you already checked the flop and there was only one player after you that could have bet the flop 'for you', and that was the button. I wouldn't want to take that risk that the button was going to automatically bet the flop (for me). Even though you are drawing to the nut flush here and you *want* players in there when and if you hit it (etc., etc.), I think it's a good decision to make the bet for yourself. IF you were in one of the blinds or in EP, I could understand the reason behind to not wanting to lead at the flop because there could be the "possibility" that someone right after you, might raise it, which may drive out your potential callers that you want to be a part of the pot if and when you connect to the nuts. But to take that chance that the button is going to bet it for you, is not the spot I would put myself in. (that's just me). If you bet the flop in MP, there is a good chance that noone will call you, and that would be okay, too because you don't have a hand yet. If they DO call you however, you get more money in the pot, and if you connect to the nut flush OR the straight on the turn, they'll be more dead money in the pot. Even if you hit the flush and they don't call your bet.....all that extra dead money is yours, plain and simple. (that's MO for handling the flop). Now, okay, so you check the flop and the button bets. EP player calls. On the turn, all of a sudden he wakes up and bets into the whole field from an UTG position. Unless he's making a stone cold bluff bet here.....he has "something" quite strong enough to make that lead out bet. Right here is where I'm putting in my raise with the nut flush. Your hand is good, but it's still vulnerable to any other paired card that can hit on the river completing the full house. If he raises you back here, well then you have another decision to make, and if your turn raise should lose the rest of the field, then you (may) be able to call his raise with more ease; and what comes up on the river, will and should be another determining factor for you on whether or not you should be paying this hand off now. A double paired board, (especially when the top pair has paired on the turn, the J), and then the board is paired again...is a tough spot to be in with the nut flush. But if it's just you and the EP player left heads up now....you may have to pay off that extra bet on the river just in case there was a slight chance that he also turned a flush with you, or if he's capable of betting with less than a full house. But the more players that call your overcall on the turn.....the harder it will be for you now to make that overcall on the river when the EP player leads at the pot again. So my advice for the turn play?....is to raise him and try to narrow the field completely. You were surprised that this EP player called the bet on the flop, right? Well when someone is capable of limping in with J2 offsuit in an UTG position, then I don't know why you would even be surprised that he would call one small bet on the flop, after flopping top pair. *You* wouldn't make that call pre-flop,I'm sure..... but he DID...which makes his call there a very easy call for HIM to make! (he's a bad and weak player....remember?)!! Now, when he HITS his trip card on the turn, I don't care what you try to do there, he is calling you for sure, 100 % of the time! But.....that shouldn't deter you from raising him here; not when you complete your hand IF you think it's the best hand at that point. The river call like I said, is a tough call to make, but in heads up play against an unknown bettor.....sometimes you make the call if you're not sure; and the pot is too big now to fold for one more bet. Showing your hand on the end?.......Mistake. Never show your cards like that. You don't want him (or anyone) to know what they drew out on. You'll only be giving them information as to how you play your cards, or how you played this particular hand. Why?...why do that? There's no reason to. The only thing that you should be doing here, is to ask yourself, "Did I play this hand the best way that I could have"? If the answer is yes, then so be it.You will get the money in the long run against opponents who make bad and/or incorrect calls anyway. No need to educate them any further. (that's MO on that subject). If you feel that you may have possibly misplayed the hand a little bit, (or any hand that you're involved with).......then think about it immediately, and try to focus on what you can do the next time when faced with certain decisions like these, against your opponents, at hand. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 12:24 | ||
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| good points 4p. so its incorrect to raise the flop in this situation? i guess i dont play it right. | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, 4 POKER, 24. Oct 2003 12:29 | ||
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| on 24. Oct 2003 12:24 modestmice wrote: > good points 4p. so its incorrect to raise the flop in this situation? > i guess i dont play it right. Hey mice, Like I said, I would have *lead* at the flop myself. In an UTG spot....maybe not, but when everyone in front of me checks it, and there's just the button left to act.....I'm putting in the bet there. If they call, they call; and if they don't....so what. You don't have a hand at that point, anyway. Get the possible dead money IN there just in case you DO hit the nuts on the turn. What happens after that flop bet, and what comes up on the turn....is a totally different and separate new decision to make. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 12:36 | ||
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| i understand. but this a loose 6-12 game (what i mainly play) and the button bet here and by the time EVERYONE calls and its back to me again, i would want raise. i feel only 1 or maybe 2 would drop at this point after theyve already commite 1 bet (incorrectly or not) | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, 4 POKER, 24. Oct 2003 13:22 | ||
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| on 24. Oct 2003 12:36 modestmice wrote: > i understand. but this a loose 6-12 game (what i mainly play) and the button bet here and by the > time EVERYONE calls and its back to me again, i would want raise. i feel only 1 or maybe 2 would > drop at this point after theyve already commite 1 bet (incorrectly or not) > Okay, if you feel a check-raise play will be more effective, then go for it! You still have to make your hand anyway. I'm just saying that I don't think you should think that it's automatically going to be bet by the player behind you; and for that one reason....I would lead at the flop for myself and try to get at least some dead money into the pot in case I do connect to the nuts on the turn, and there is still going to be a possibility....that they all fold when you DO bet it here. It's not a strong possibility perhaps....but it's still a chance that they would. (Keep in mind, he was not in EP when he checked it.) And whenever I don't have a hand.....I don't mind if they DO fold to a bet. Flushes don't hit all that often, and without even flopping a pair for back-up?.....I would be more than happy to take down an uncontested pot. So in my thinking....there's a couple of reasons as to why I would want to make the bet: They call and you get X-tra money in the pot if you do hit perfect.....OR, they fold to your bet and you take the pot right on the flop. But we all play different, and we all want to win the "really big pots" with our nut flush *draws* and things like that.....but when I'm still drawing, if I bet and they fold?......good for me. I like to give them at least the opportunity, to do so. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, modestmice, 24. Oct 2003 12:37 | ||
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| but i should say i would not checkraise here. duh. i would bet out like you say and if raised by button, call. (as you said) | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, gary ford, 24. Oct 2003 12:31 | ||
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| on 24. Oct 2003 12:24 modestmice wrote: > good points 4p. so its incorrect to raise the flop in this situation? > i guess i dont play it right. I think 4p meant--lead out with a bet, don't check raise-- bur im sure he'll clarify | ||
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| Re: Dont u dare call the River, 4 POKER, 24. Oct 2003 12:50 | ||
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| I misread your post (again!) TC. You had more than one player left behind you to act, not just the button. If I'm correct (now), I think you had 2 players behind you yet to act here, because you said there were 7 players total: the 2 blinds, the 2 limpers, "you" (which makes 5), and that would be 2 remaining. Not that much of a difference anyway......but I wanted to let you know that my reasons behind my thoughts for the flop play still stand, for how I may have chosen to play it. (that's all.....continue on!) lol! 4P- | ||
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