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Server Time: 12/2/2008 12:07:27 AM PACIFIC |
 Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Bart Mann, 22. Oct 2003 08:06 | ||
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| ** After I wrote this I realized it's very close to the question Eman asked below. Maybe we can work together on this one, Eman? ================= Good morning. I’m looking for some theories or strategies on what to do when you flop middle pair in EP in a No-Limit game (tournament or ring). I’ll throw out an example scenario to get the conversation going: NLHE SNG tournament, all 10 players are still at the table. In EP you get dealt Ad8d. The table hasn’t been overly aggressive as of yet, so you limp in to see the flop. You end up with 5 callers and no raises. The flop comes Q-8-2 rainbow with no diamonds. You’re first to act. You’ve got middle pair with the best kicker. Do you: a) Make a pot-sized bet, hoping to drive out anyone with a flush or straight draw—which should also tell you who (if anyone) at the table was hit by the Q in the flop; b) Check it, knowing that whoever hit a pair of queens will likely bet out; or c) None of the above. My first instinct is that with middle pair top kicker, I still need a little help to make a solid hand. In a No-Limit game I wouldn’t feel comfortable calling a large post-flop bet or pushing in a huge bet with this hand—I’d want some more help in the form of another 9 or maybe an Ace. At that point I could isolate the person or persons with a queen or ace in the hole with a big bet on the river—maybe represent a steal and hope one of these people plays back at me. I guess what I’m saying is, in a NLHE game I would tend to try and pull a free (or very inexpensive) Turn card if at all possible to make a bigger hand. If the Turn didn’t hit me, I’d probably muck to any significant bet. Thoughts, anyone? | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Eman, 22. Oct 2003 08:23 | ||
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| Your question is very similar and I would like to hear other peoples thoughts. In the example you gave I would like to bet an amount I would call. If its raised I can fold. But If im willing to call a certain size bet I would like to bet that amount instead of calling it. If I do get called, I would have to suspect that Im behind. If I dont improve, Im willing to let go of the hand to a significant bet. Any other thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Bart Mann, 22. Oct 2003 09:01 | ||
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| As I mentioned, in a NL game with a face card in the flop, I typically play middle pair pretty tentatively. I would normally put in the minimum bet for a shot at the turn card. But the question is, in EP do you lead or do you check and follow? Sometimes when you are able to see the Turn for free some very good things happen. Obviously you can make a set or a big two pair, but if the Turn card doeesn't hit you but is considered "scary" (like a King) it may freeze the players who are on a pair of queens and you may get to see the River for free as well. It's a dynamic situation that I seem to run into all of the time, so I'm curious to know what everyone else thinks. | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, noiseboy, 22. Oct 2003 09:30 | ||
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| With that many players, I would probably just check from EP. With fewer players seeing the flop, you can try a semi-bluff bet since you have some outs if you get called by a better hand. Basically, if I get called, I'm probably through with the hand unless I improve. | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Schuster, 22. Oct 2003 12:41 | ||
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| There is no set answer here as it's very dependent on your opponents. With 5 limpers, it's pretty likely that someone has a queen though. I think your best bet here is to post some hands including your perceptions of your opponents and get feedback on a specific hand, since changing a tiny detail can have a drastic effect on how you should play the hand. Lee | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Bart Mann, 22. Oct 2003 13:14 | ||
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| In a fast and loose game in EP, I think this decision is pretty straightforward—check it and chuck it. The last thing you want to do is get stuck in the middle of a raising war with middle pair. If there’s a good chance it’s going to cost you two or three bets to see the Turn, there’s no point in putting any chips at risk to start with. To answer your question, the situation I’m referring to would be more of a table where players are predictably aggressive (raising with AA, KK or AK), but otherwise like to see the flop as a group. Not a lot of pot stealing or misrepresentation at the table, and very little chance of an All-In bet unless someone has the nuts. Basically that same dynamic you get in the first couple hands of a tournament—everyone feeling everyone else out. In a situation like this, do you make a bet in EP to see where you stand, or do you check it and let the players with the queens (assuming there are any) do the betting? | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, spawn of satan, 23. Oct 2003 10:54 | ||
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| Bart, You're not playing limit here-why play A-rag suited from up front at all? Even if you flop a draw, are you going to get paid off if you hit? Playing these hands in NL will only burn up chips in the long run. Middle pair in NL is often no more than a bluff-catcher, and I'm not going to put money in the pot , out of position, facing multiple opponents. Also, it's unwise to assume that a player holding, say, A-Q or K-Q will give it away by raising when you bet middle pair. When you bet and are called, you really don't know where you are in the hand. Daniel Negreanu likes to come in with this type of hand (or worse!), but even he comes to grief now and then. Alan | ||
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| Re: Flopping Middle Pairs in EP No-Limit, Bart Mann, 23. Oct 2003 11:32 | ||
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| In a passive No-Limit game with very little preflop raising, lots of callers and people who prefer to play post-flop (as I described in the postings above) I think this is the perfect hand to limp in and see a flop with. I wouldn't play this hand in EP in an agressive game unless there were 5 or less players, but if I'm relatively certain I can see the flop for the table minimum in a crowded pot, I'm there every time. | ||
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