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Server Time: 12/1/2008 11:51:36 PM PACIFIC |
 No limit frustration, KevinK, 22. Oct 2003 02:37 | ||
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| I'm just wondering what is the thinking. I just got recently ousted from a tourney at UB. I can play really well in the tourneys and get far but haven't made a final table in quite a while. I always find myself losing to the table chip leader for some reason. I will play a decent hand to premium while keeping up a tight table image. However, when I bet any amount of chips the leader will always try to bully me out of a pot without any respect for my bet. In the losing hand, I was two before the BB, betting half my chips(1200) with an ace 10 on suit(I'm an instinctive player and am usually right when it comes to hitting a set) and he casually called me(he had 8000 and was one after the button) while everyone else folded. Sure enough, my instincts paid off when the flop came up 5 spade-ace spade- ace club. I bet all my chips up on it where the leader quickly called. He reveals Jack six of spades. Sure enough, a two of spades hit the turn and a nine of diamonds hit the river, knocking me out of the tourney. I cursed him out so much, partially for beating me but more so for playing such a weak hand. He called me unskilled despite his lucky win. I am wondering these things: 1. Can anyone offer any insight to what a chip leader is thinking most of the time? To me, its play any hand that you can unless its insanely weak and try to knockout players that try to catch lightning in a bottle while steamrolling them out of pots. 2. Is it a good idea to use the chip leader to increase your chips or is it better to knockout smaller stacks? 3. How could I have played that hand better? | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, modestmice, 22. Oct 2003 02:58 | ||
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| on 22. Oct 2003 02:37 KevinK wrote: > I'm just wondering what is the thinking. I just got recently ousted from a > tourney at UB. I can play really well in the tourneys and get far but haven't > made a final table in quite a while. I always find myself losing to the table > chip leader for some reason. I will play a decent hand to premium while keeping > up a tight table image. However, when I bet any amount of chips the leader will > always try to bully me out of a pot without any respect for my bet. In the > losing hand, I was two before the BB, betting half my chips(1200) with an ace > 10 on suit(I'm an instinctive player and am usually right when it comes to > hitting a set) and he casually called me(he had 8000 and was one after the > button) while everyone else folded. Sure enough, my instincts paid off when > the flop came up 5 spade-ace spade- ace club. I bet all my chips up on it where > the leader quickly called. He reveals Jack six of spades. Sure enough, a two > of spades hit the turn and a nine of diamonds hit the river, knocking me out of > the tourney. I cursed him out so much, partially for beating me but more so for > playing such a weak hand. He called me unskilled despite his lucky win. > > I am wondering these things: > 1. Can anyone offer any insight to what a chip leader is thinking most of the > time? To me, its play any hand that you can unless its insanely weak and try to > knockout players that try to catch lightning in a bottle while steamrolling them > out of pots. > 2. Is it a good idea to use the chip leader to increase your chips or is it > better to knockout smaller stacks? > 3. How could I have played that hand better? !> 1) Thats the reality of a loose aggressive chip leader, you have to be aware of the tables chipleader tendancies and tip toe around him using position (he had position on you here) 2) its a good idea to get your chips from whoever is weak. 3) Raising A-10s half your stack with a maniac chip leader left to act is not the correct play. you need to always consider your opponants behavour and your postion to them before risking half or all your chips, what you cards are matter less. it is also poor form to yell at someone for being a bad player, especially when you havnt really played that well. i do not understand your "instinctive player"comments about knowing when you'll hit a set. honestly, that kind of thinking is your biggest problem right now. you need to play by logical thought, not guessing. i would read some tourny books and post some hands here for analysis. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, KevinK, 22. Oct 2003 03:36 | ||
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| It wasn't a guess I swear. Sometimes players get feelings when something good will come their way, even on online play(its these same instincts that everyone has that tell them when they are being bluffed). I tried playing logical, mathematic-oriented poker but that style isn't for me in the least bit. I'll give you position was a bad thing but looking back he would have called no matter where he was on the board. If there was any mistake I made, its that I can be impulsive when I hit a good hand. I saw two spades on board but made one bad read(the one person that called me down had the spades). You talk to me about logic? His illogical call would put a Vulcan in a coma. As for the yelling being bad form, yes it is. However, I've never been one to lose gracefully(call it immature, but venting makes me feel better). I may lose to lucky plays, but I take comfort knowing that I have never seen that person go on to win a tourney or even make a final table. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, modestmice, 22. Oct 2003 04:00 | ||
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| on 22. Oct 2003 03:36 KevinK wrote: > It wasn't a guess I swear. Sometimes players get feelings when something good will come > their way, even on online play(its these same instincts that everyone has that tell them > when they are being bluffed). I tried playing logical, mathematic-oriented poker but that > style isn't for me in the least bit. I'll give you position was a bad thing but looking > back he would have called no matter where he was on the board. If there was any mistake I > made, its that I can be impulsive when I hit a good hand. I saw two spades on board but > made one bad read(the one person that called me down had the spades). You talk to me > about logic? His illogical call would put a Vulcan in a coma. As for the yelling being > bad form, yes it is. However, I've never been one to lose gracefully(call it immature, > but venting makes me feel better). I may lose to lucky plays, but I take comfort knowing > that I have never seen that person go on to win a tourney or even make a final table. i understand your feelings here, but it wont help you get better. you just need to do the best you can with the informations you have, which is why position is is really important. regardless of what the player did here, to get better you need to examine your play and fix weaknesses you have. try not to be so results oriented. yes you lost the hand, but if you lose after making all the right decisions, then youve done a good job either way. on that hand, regardless of the poor player or the outcome, did you play it well? if playing on instinct only without using strategy, math/odds etc you cannot expect to make it to the final table without a lot of luck. your instincts may be good, but without the total package you cannot be a winning player, so try to work on your total game and you'll do better. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, Blade, 22. Oct 2003 05:20 | ||
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| Your "instinct" is going to lose you alot of money if you continue to play that way. Every players natural "instinct" is to want to call and to do this your mind pictures the best possible outcome. You then remember only the times you guessed right. If you truly had some sort of instinct you would only make winning calls. Also wouldn't your instict have known that your trips would have not been a winning hand, therefore nothing good did come your way. Seriously, no offense but this is one of the most ridiculous things i have heard in a long time. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, modestmice, 22. Oct 2003 06:09 | ||
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| on 22. Oct 2003 05:20 Blade wrote: > Your "instinct" is going to lose you alot of money if you continue to play that way. Every players > natural "instinct" is to want to call and to do this your mind pictures the best possible outcome. > You then remember only the times you guessed right. If you truly had some sort of instinct you > would only make winning calls. Also wouldn't your instict have known that your trips would have not > been a winning hand, therefore nothing good did come your way. > > Seriously, no offense but this is one of the most ridiculous things i have heard in a long time. but, blade, he is coming here for help. thats a good sign, ridiculous or not. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, davideasg, 27. Oct 2003 15:18 | ||
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| If you had such acute insinct, you would have "felt" his flush draw. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, modestmice, 27. Oct 2003 15:19 | ||
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| lol | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, KevinK, 2. Nov 2003 03:10 | ||
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| Wehehehehell, as if I haven't heard that one you unoriginal bastard(no real slam to you, just quoting Tollbooth Willy). If you read the other posts you would know I have an imuplse control problem. I readily admit that. However, I can say I've improved greatly since the last post. I found listening to heavy metal and rap(no poser crap for me) calms me down. Well that and quoting any movie I remember. As far as guessing goes, I don't do it as much as I did but I still like using instincts to tell if I'm being bluffed or not. Losing isn't what irks me so much. Its the reasoning behind it. If I lose to a high pocket pair, big slick, or even K 7 in the blinds, I can understand those since I'd play them. However, I ask why someone would play 3 5 suited and get that flush or 6 straight, and 9 times out of 10 the answer is bc its a freeroll, low limit, etc. Its that lack of respect towards not only me, but the game in general, that irks me. I don't know, maybe I'm taking the game too seriously. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, 4 POKER, 2. Nov 2003 03:51 | ||
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| Kevin, I'd like to comment on the last few statements of your post (with all due respect). Players that play weak hands, are the players that you 'want' in your game. I know it can be frustrating when you lose big hands to total poo-poo hands, (and I'm talking in *general*, not this particular hand that you lost to) however..... It may not be a lack of respect towards you, or the game for that matter.....but just a pure lack of poker knowledge in general. If you can see that these types of players are the one's that will truly add to your earn in poker (the long run), and you can keep good control over your emotions, then you will be ahead of the game. Staying focused, while possessing many poker skills yourself , is Key - and it will help you to fully understand and 'accept' anything that may be causing you to think otherwise - because players that truly take the *game* seriously, keep all of their emotions in tact, and they know why they are sitting there, in the first place. (You need to do the same). Hang in there :) 4P- | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, Easy E, 28. Oct 2003 08:48 | ||
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| on 22. Oct 2003 03:36 KevinK wrote: As for the yelling being > bad form, yes it is. However, I've never been one to lose gracefully(call it immature, > but venting makes me feel better). I may lose to lucky plays, but I take comfort knowing > that I have never seen that person go on to win a tourney or even make a final table. Okay, so far we have a) You think you can guess flops with reasonable success, based on what I assume is a small data set (if this continues, please tell me when you've won the lottery) b) You have emotion control problems, along with emotional projection issues. As others have already said, you need to eliminate THESE two areas first- they're probably big logjams in the way of any final-table success. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, Eman, 22. Oct 2003 06:56 | ||
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| i think your first mistake is raising half your stack with A10s.. That is still a drawing hand. Why commit yourself when you need help on the flop. Even if he didnt have the flush, he did call a big raise preflop. He could be holding AK, AQ, AJ, 1010, A2, A9, 22, 99, and any two spades which all beat your hand. I would never committ like that against the chip leader. Terrible play. Just my thoughts. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, KevinK, 22. Oct 2003 12:24 | ||
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| You're right, that seemed shortsighted considering the possibilities but it didn't seem he had any of those(based on his style, he would have reraised me if he had) to begin with. I'm not thinking the technical aspects are the ultimate problem(though I know I have ways to go), its the emotional side of the game that is killing me. Why did I not throw my aces away you asked? Because I can sometimes get far too impulsive for my own good when I hit. I saw the spades on the board and thought of a flush hitting, but was blinded by my own hand. If you can toss the low end of a striaight to the possibility of a higher one, you have far more control than I do. Upon reflecting, I think I could have played it better by just betting smaller and having him call since he was on a draw and fold when it hit or bet again if it didn't. If it hit on the river, then I could have folded and shown(showing some sympahy shows are a personal quirk of mine). I do appreciate all the comments, even the ones that give me the feeling that I'm nothing more than the village idiot(I'm not sure if I'm considered a dumb cop, sailor, construction worker, or indian though ha ha). That said, I promise to take all this into consideration, drink caucasians, listen to creedence, and not bowl on shabbos. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, Blade, 27. Oct 2003 15:36 | ||
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| You came here and took your lumps that alone puts you worlds ahead of the village idiots. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, R A Horne, 23. Oct 2003 12:57 | ||
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| I think that there are three problems with your play of this hand. 1. with two spades on the flop you should have given greater weight to the possibility that he may have had spades with two draws at making a flush. 2. you need to respect the fact that he was the chip leader at that time. He may have been a better player than you and may have seen something that you didn't see after the flop. He may have been "on a rush". In any single hand, the cards can make a world champ look like a chump. Unless you have a royal flush, there is no such thing as a "sure thing." 3. attitude. I have been watching the World Poker Tour on TV. I have noted that most of the winners, weather they "appear" to play wildly or with cold calculation,are able to stop their play and reread the cards when another player makes an unexpected move. You also need to learn to take instride the unexpected "bad beat." After the flop the odds were on your side, but after the turn your hand was in danger unless you drew a full house. | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, LJH, 30. Oct 2003 14:34 | ||
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| KEVINK, DO NOT TAKE ON THE CHIP LEADER UNLESS YOU HAVE AN OUTSTANDING HAND. YOU HAND WAS NOT. TAKE ON THE SMALL FRY. LJH | ||
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| Re: No limit frustration, WilliamS, 2. Nov 2003 06:23 | ||
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| I've just read all these threads and I agree playing A-10 that strong preflop may or may not have been a mistake depending on the table. But if I'm in his situation after the flop, I go all-in without a second thought. He is short stacked if he doesn't and he is a favorite in a hand to double up. I agree, his attitude toward being put out of the tournament is wrong, but I would have done the same thing as far as flop play is concerned. Will | ||
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