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Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:20:44 PM PACIFIC |
 Getting run over!, SCOTT FRANCIS, 21. Oct 2003 07:11 | ||
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| Last night, PokerStars 2table $50 + 5 NLHE SNG. 5 players left, leader on my right with 10k others all around 2500-5000. Final 4 spots pay so play is tight. Blinds go up to 300/600 and this is where it starts. Chip leader to my right starts running over the table. He begins raising to $2400 nearly every hand in any position. I fold everything I get (nothing remotely playable other than a 33). Mostly everyone folds to his raise, a few call and he bets out again and then they fold. I begin this stretch in 2nd place with 4900, after a few rounds im now at 2200 and am getting desperate. I'm now in 4th place, last place is around 1700. I am in BB he is SB ( he now has over 13k) I get KJ spades, all fold to him, he makes it 2400, I call all in and he has AKs. No J he wins, I'm out on the bubble in 5th. This seems to be a major weakness for me. Final 3-5 players I basically wait for a good quality hand and play it for all it's worth. More times than not I lose. Did I make a mistake in this situation? Should I try a bluff (steal) raise earlier before my chips are in jeopardy even though I never got a playable hand? With 5k I think I could have scared him, with 2k I am no threat. Let me know, Thanks SCOTT | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Oct 2003 08:18 | ||
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| You said it. With 2k you are no threat. He looks at it like, one more person I can eliminate and if he loses, oh well...he is still a leader by long shot. It's a tough call when he is raising every pot, and your right...you have to pick a hand and run with it. Although KJ isnt as great as it looks. All he needed was an A low kicker if the A hit which is a decent hand in 3-5 players. I would have been thinking he had at least the A when he raises to 2400 but your KJ was borderline. I would have seen the next round for free and tried to pick a better hand to go in on. You can't let those guys get to you. When one guy is "running over" the table....it makes us want to call him out that much more. You're then more likely to play KJo or mid pockets. I would have seen the next 5 hands or so and hoped for high pockets or suited face cards. At the worst you could have at least seen a flop for 600 and still had a few chips to call another hand if your cards didn't hit. Very tough call but with the money being one person away...if you wait another 5 hands someone else has a good chance of going all in against this guy and giving you the 4th spot. When I am one seat away from money...i always Tighten up my game, especially against a loose player with a big stack that isn't afraid to put you all in. You need to make sure you get at least that 4th seat and hopefully u can last a little bit longer than the guy with 1700 chips. Good luck to ya | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 08:29 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 07:11 SCOTT FRANCIS wrote: > Last night, PokerStars 2table $50 + 5 NLHE SNG. 5 players left, leader on my > right with 10k others all around 2500-5000. Final 4 spots pay so play is tight. > Blinds go up to 300/600 and this is where it starts. Chip leader to my right > starts running over the table. He begins raising to $2400 nearly every hand in > any position. I fold everything I get (nothing remotely playable other than a > 33). Mostly everyone folds to his raise, a few call and he bets out again and > then they fold. I begin this stretch in 2nd place with 4900, after a few rounds > im now at 2200 and am getting desperate. I'm now in 4th place, last place is > around 1700. I am in BB he is SB ( he now has over 13k) I get KJ spades, all > fold to him, he makes it 2400, I call all in and he has AKs. No J he wins, I'm > out on the bubble in 5th. > This seems to be a major weakness for me. Final 3-5 players I > basically wait for a good quality hand and play it for all it's worth. More > times than not I lose. Did I make a mistake in this situation? Should I try a > bluff (steal) raise earlier before my chips are in jeopardy even though I never > got a playable hand? With 5k I think I could have scared him, with 2k I am no > threat. Let me know, Thanks SCOTT you did the right thing. i was in a large live tourny, final table with 4 people and 3rd stack with the same guy as yours raising every single hand. i picked up kqs, went allin and he knocked me out with AX high. i thought the same as you, but concluded there is not a whole lot u can do. its a crapshoot sometimes....especially in sitngos ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, SCOTT FRANCIS, 21. Oct 2003 08:52 | ||
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| Thanks for the opinions. Main reason I chose this spot was the fact that 1. We were head up 2. He had been doing this nearly every hand (loose) maybe full bluff 3. If I waited one more round I would be down to approx $1300 in which case it would be difficult to come in top 2 spots 4. If any of the other players had made the same raise I would have folded in a heartbeat based on their tight play. My intention was not to merely come in top four although that is always a consideration. 4th place onlys pays like 84 on a 55 investment whereas 2nd is about 200. I was hoping to make it 1st or 2nd. Basically, what I'm trying to get from this is: when you get in this situation (2-3 blinds away from elimination) and someone is pushing you around, what are you to do. Is it better to try a bluff steal yourself before you get too low (say 4k), wait for a blackjack hand and go with it, or wait for the premium hand and risk being blinded away. FlopDaNutz, maybe I should consider the latter more and settle for 4th place more often rather than trying for the win. Having been in 2nd a few minutes earlier I felt like that is where i belonged and wanted to get back there. Guess I was chasin. Let me know what you think. Thanks again for the help. SCOTT | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Oct 2003 12:08 | ||
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| well your right....2nd place is great. Although 4th only pays back 85 or so......5th place is a loss of $55....so you maske the choice. :) I play to win also....but when it comes down to that situation....you HAVE to make sure you at least get in the money. In this specific case...wehn someone is raising everything and buying pots left and right, a blind steal would be very difficult as he would prob take his chances with a T8o or something. that is the kind of power you have when you are the BIG chip leader like that BUT.....on the other end, when you and a few other guys are facing elimination in the face and there is a guy betting like he is then.........You must play it cool and let someone else be the sucker to pick a KJ or so to go in with and get called out. You must think...if he is calling/raising everything.....the firt person that gets a good hand on him is going to try to take him all in. Let that be another person and not you because there is a good chance BIG DOG is gonna elimate that other person and automatically put you in the money. It would have been about a $90 difference in you bankroll. I would only go all in with a dynamite hand liek High pockets or Connecting suited face cards against him. In which case i would only call blinds if i had the chance and see what the flop is before "elimating" myself from $90 when I was only a few hands away from being in the money. If you have the mentallity to sit back and watch when someone gets aggressive like that....then you can sit back pay your blinds and watch him elimate someone else to ensure you have a spot in the bankroll. Then...once in the money....you can take your shot at the KJ...for your last 1200 chips or whatever you had left. Hope this is helpfull to you.....remember first and second are great!!!!! .....BUT 5th is SOOO much worse than 4th. | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, SCOTT FRANCIS, 21. Oct 2003 12:28 | ||
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| Yeah, in hindsight I guess you are right. I'm looking at it as a 30 win when in reality the 55 is gone so it's an $80 or $90 difference. It was a matter of little time when someone was gonna challenge him. Waiting it out was the better option. What about the other option, do you see any merit in trying an earlier steal even though my cards were lousy or just wait for playable cards. Dont want to be a pain but I feel this is a common scenario for me and need to improve at this point. I rarely get eliminated early and face this situation nearly every tourney. Thanks a lot for your time. SCOTT | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, FlopDaNutz, 21. Oct 2003 13:09 | ||
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| again, like I had said earlier, it would have been tough to try a steal raise when this call was calling or buying about everything. Even with 4 or 5k...you would have needed to be willing to bet big preflop....and post flop. Taking this kind of risk with "average" cards, is just that...A risk! but then again it this is why the call it gambling. If you were going to do this...you have remember you were sitting to the right of him ( i think) so if you try to steal a pot....there are 3 other people that may call you and most likely stick it to you with your average cards. When you get in this situation next time, and there is someone with less chips than you at the table. Play it "my style" and see what you think. If you finish in the money....you may thank me. The way i see it...your chances are better of the "BIG BETTER" putting someone else out in the next ten hands, than you going out from paying blinds. You could have seen another 12-15 hands with your bankroll folding everything which would almost ensure you a spot in money. Not to mention, in those 10 hands or more...you could very easily get some pocket faces or high connectors suited that would be worth paying blinds for. You may even get a lucky check on BB and get to see a "free" hand and catch something on the flop. So next time you get in this situation...stick it out and get in the money....then make your moves from there. I hate the feeling of playing a strong game, only to get 5th place especially when I go all in with a good hand as my "LAST RESORT". This is what brought about my theory of "playing chill mode" when we are down to 5 people to ensure my spot at some cash. This has proven to pay off for me in the long run. As I look back at my tourney record....I love seeing all the "3rd and 4th" places as they do add up if you can do it every every 3 or 4 tourneys. You must remember...just because you are playing to get the 4th spot or just to get in money....doesnt mean you have to finish 4th. Like I said ...once you earn that seat....I turn my game into SUPER agressive mode. Then I make my moves and try a few steals, or play more borderline cards. People get to thinking about that #1 or #2 slot and unwillingly tighten up thier game when there is 3-4 people left in the game. This is when I love playting loose, and end up winning quite a few tourneys this way. Good luck to ya bro...let me know if you give it a try. Remember, get in the money first....5th place is a long walk home! | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, KJo, 21. Oct 2003 17:03 | ||
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| You absolutely have to try and steal some blinds or you will find yourself in the situation you were in- having such a small stack that nobody is scared of you. Yes, it would be more difficult finding spots to steal with the aggressive guy to your right, but you still need to. I don't have a problem with your all in with KJ, you were short stacked and even if you had folded and waited for a better hand (which might not come), all you're going to do is teeter where you are and let your stack dwindle some more, making you less of a threat. You might have come back around to the BB again and been in the same situation holding 62o. Against a bully there's nothing terribly bad about KJ, he could have nothing, and you at least have two big cards. But you have to have enough chips to scare him- bullies really don't like being hit back. Eli on 21. Oct 2003 07:11 SCOTT FRANCIS wrote: > Last night, PokerStars 2table $50 + 5 NLHE SNG. 5 players left, leader on my > right with 10k others all around 2500-5000. Final 4 spots pay so play is tight. > Blinds go up to 300/600 and this is where it starts. Chip leader to my right > starts running over the table. He begins raising to $2400 nearly every hand in > any position. I fold everything I get (nothing remotely playable other than a > 33). Mostly everyone folds to his raise, a few call and he bets out again and > then they fold. I begin this stretch in 2nd place with 4900, after a few rounds > im now at 2200 and am getting desperate. I'm now in 4th place, last place is > around 1700. I am in BB he is SB ( he now has over 13k) I get KJ spades, all > fold to him, he makes it 2400, I call all in and he has AKs. No J he wins, I'm > out on the bubble in 5th. > This seems to be a major weakness for me. Final 3-5 players I > basically wait for a good quality hand and play it for all it's worth. More > times than not I lose. Did I make a mistake in this situation? Should I try a > bluff (steal) raise earlier before my chips are in jeopardy even though I never > got a playable hand? With 5k I think I could have scared him, with 2k I am no > threat. Let me know, Thanks SCOTT | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, Barry T, 22. Oct 2003 20:14 | ||
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| Hi. The real issue (forgive me, this is not advice most people want to hear) is the concept of "playable hand". Do you think the bully was looking at AK every time he raised? Do youithink Danile Negraneau and Layne Flack and Gus Hansen and Phil Ivey are sitting and waiting for "Playable hands?" If a guy is raising every hand, go over the top once in a while. Any two will do. Sure if he calls you will be behind and have to get lucky, but after all of that folding, that is where you ended up anyway! Read Daniel's article in the recent CardPlayer. Notice that he soemhow is playing 62 and 54 and so on. And I suspect he wins more events than anyone else In No Limit, you need to maintain your stack. SnGs are not routinely won by the person with the best hands but with the most moxie (he said on this family website). BarryT | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, gary ford, 22. Oct 2003 22:04 | ||
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| Hi Barry--We missed you today look forward to seeing you next week--Had 23 show up today--interesting discussions Gary | ||
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| Re: Getting run over!, chasepoker, 23. Oct 2003 09:24 | ||
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| If you have got to the situation where you are in ( T2200 ) and you have put in the 600 leaving you on 1700 i would fold here and wait for a better opportunity. If you fold this hand and the next you are on T1400 but the guy who is on T1700 will be on T800 unless he risks an all in on his blinds / before his blinds, let him take the risk of going all in first. Further to this KJo ( or suited ) is not a great hand to be CALLING all it is ok to raise all in but calling all in with this hand is not great IMO. Remember at this stage of the tournament staying alive is what it is all about and someone else is going to have to go all in before you so let them ! If they manage to steal the blinds and so become a larger stack than you then that is the time to take the risk of calling all in. This is even more true with the payout structure at these 2 table s and g's on poker stars ( payout is 40%,30%,20%,10% for the first 4 places ) with this structure i find myself playing for 4th at the start then 3rd, then 2nd etc... the structure of the payout dictates that you do not gain as much for finishing first, as opposed to bigger tournaments where first may be 40% and 2nd 20% or whatever. A couple of other points worth saying coming back to the KJo it really is not a good all in hand unless you are in real trouble. Also you are right in stating that you might have been better in increasing your stack a little when you had more chips although if the chip leader is always acting before you then this can be tricky but i might have raised all in the first time the chip leader was not in the pot with any 2 cards. But overall the payout structure of these 2 table games means you do not get the rewards of being aggressive at the end compared to bigger tournaments which should effect your play. Cheers Chasepoker on 21. Oct 2003 07:11 SCOTT FRANCIS wrote: > Last night, PokerStars 2table $50 + 5 NLHE SNG. 5 players left, leader on my > right with 10k others all around 2500-5000. Final 4 spots pay so play is tight. > Blinds go up to 300/600 and this is where it starts. Chip leader to my right > starts running over the table. He begins raising to $2400 nearly every hand in > any position. I fold everything I get (nothing remotely playable other than a > 33). Mostly everyone folds to his raise, a few call and he bets out again and > then they fold. I begin this stretch in 2nd place with 4900, after a few rounds > im now at 2200 and am getting desperate. I'm now in 4th place, last place is > around 1700. I am in BB he is SB ( he now has over 13k) I get KJ spades, all > fold to him, he makes it 2400, I call all in and he has AKs. No J he wins, I'm > out on the bubble in 5th. > This seems to be a major weakness for me. Final 3-5 players I > basically wait for a good quality hand and play it for all it's worth. More > times than not I lose. Did I make a mistake in this situation? Should I try a > bluff (steal) raise earlier before my chips are in jeopardy even though I never > got a playable hand? With 5k I think I could have scared him, with 2k I am no > threat. Let me know, Thanks SCOTT | ||
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