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Server Time: 12/1/2008 10:48:00 PM PACIFIC |
 Please analyze this for me, WilliamS, 21. Oct 2003 07:02 | ||
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| 1/2 blind NL UB Table has recently filled up after about 30 minutes of short handed play. I'm on the button with AQo, UTG bets the pot, and its folded to me. The UTG player had recently raised the pot with AJo from small blind with 5 limpers in front. As a result of this play I have him labled as having very liberal raising requirements. (We have nearly identical stacks) I call his bet and we take the flop heads up. First question, is this a raise/fold situation? I will often fold this hand in similar situations, but with the button against against this opponent I really want to see the flop, but hate investing lots of money with this hand. Looking back, I wish I had raised preflop to take control of the hand and possibly find out where I'm at. The flop comes A 10 8 rainbow. He bets the pot. Now I have a decision to make. I beat AJ, A9, Ax, KK, QQ, JJ and I'm beat by AA, AK, A10, A8, 1010, 88, and 108. I raise, thinking I could very well have the best hand and I think if he has a set or 2 pair he will move in on me. He just calls. Now, I'm thinking he has AK and is scared I have him beat, he has a weaker Ace, or KK, QQ, JJ hoping to spike his set. The turn is a J, and he bets the pot putting him all in. (I didn't download my hand history, but the pot was approx. 100 dollars and his bet was 100 dollars putting him all-in) I have approx. that much in front of me. The pot is laying me right at 2:1 to call. His bet perplexes me. If he had a set or two pair on the flop he would've raised me or allowed me to bet the turn for him I think. If he had KQ and was crazy enough to stick around for the turn he wouldn't bet this way. I feel like he had AJ again giving him top 2 pair and not wanting me to catch up wanted to end the hand there. Or, he held a hand like KK QQ and when the turn brought a scare card took the opportunity to push me off my hand. ( The QQ is a likely possibility since the turn gave him 2nd pair and a double belly buster straight draw). Or maybe he made a set of Js and didn't want to give the free card. In conclusion, I folded my hand because in all actuality all I could beat was a complete bluff. AQ, I'm drawing to half, A9 I beat but he has outs, A7 and below but surely he didn't raise that UTG, KK and QQ are all I beat. I think this is a clear fold, but him betting into me clouds the issue for me. What would he call my raise with and then bet into me with on the turn. Most of the hands that beat mine are powerful enough to trap me with. He is risking his entire stack whether he lets me bet for him or he bets out. By him betting out it makes me think he was trying to make me fold. Am I overthinking this? Obviously, it all depends on the opponent, but his play still confuses me. Sorry this is so long, any criticisms will be appreciated Will | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 08:21 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 07:02 WilliamS wrote: > 1/2 blind NL UB > > Table has recently filled up after about 30 minutes of short handed play. > > I'm on the button with AQo, UTG bets the pot, and its folded to me. The UTG > player had recently raised the pot with AJo from small blind with 5 limpers in > front. As a result of this play I have him labled as having very liberal > raising requirements. (We have nearly identical stacks) > > I call his bet and we take the flop heads up. First question, is this a > raise/fold situation? I will often fold this hand in similar situations, but > with the button against against this opponent I really want to see the flop, but > hate investing lots of money with this hand. Looking back, I wish I had raised > preflop to take control of the hand and possibly find out where I'm at. > > The flop comes A 10 8 rainbow. He bets the pot. Now I have a decision to > make. I beat AJ, A9, Ax, KK, QQ, JJ and I'm beat by AA, AK, A10, A8, 1010, 88, > and 108. I raise, thinking I could very well have the best hand and I think if > he has a set or 2 pair he will move in on me. He just calls. Now, I'm thinking > he has AK and is scared I have him beat, he has a weaker Ace, or KK, QQ, JJ > hoping to spike his set. > > The turn is a J, and he bets the pot putting him all in. (I didn't download my > hand history, but the pot was approx. 100 dollars and his bet was 100 dollars > putting him all-in) I have approx. that much in front of me. The pot is laying > me right at 2:1 to call. His bet perplexes me. If he had a set or two pair on > the flop he would've raised me or allowed me to bet the turn for him I think. > If he had KQ and was crazy enough to stick around for the turn he wouldn't bet > this way. > I feel like he had AJ again giving him top 2 pair and not wanting me to catch > up wanted to end the hand there. Or, he held a hand like KK QQ and when the > turn brought a scare card took the opportunity to push me off my hand. ( The QQ > is a likely possibility since the turn gave him 2nd pair and a double belly > buster straight draw). Or maybe he made a set of Js and didn't want to give the > free card. > > In conclusion, I folded my hand because in all actuality all I could beat was a > complete bluff. AQ, I'm drawing to half, A9 I beat but he has outs, A7 and > below but surely he didn't raise that UTG, KK and QQ are all I beat. > > I think this is a clear fold, but him betting into me clouds the issue for me. > What would he call my raise with and then bet into me with on the turn. Most of > the hands that beat mine are powerful enough to trap me with. He is risking his > entire stack whether he lets me bet for him or he bets out. By him betting out > it makes me think he was trying to make me fold. Am I overthinking this? > Obviously, it all depends on the opponent, but his play still confuses me. > > Sorry this is so long, any criticisms will be appreciated > > Will tough one here, so good one to post. hindsight here is correct, i think. i would have re raised for sure with that read you had on UTG player. that would have given u the info to continue properly. if he go's over the top then i would put him on a real hand here like AA KK etc etc, if he calls and checks the flop to you then i would bet out nicely and see what happens. he most likely had a nice holding judging by his betting pattern, but he might just be insane and really aggressive and didnt care about what u might hold ( i think it would be clear to him to put u on AK AQ on the flop) or perhaps he noticed a weak tendancy in your play and held a AX and felt you would fold from previous actions. i think since you had position you really had to fold or raise preflop, so talking about whether the fold was good or bad is tough to do. ------------------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, shorn, 21. Oct 2003 08:38 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 07:02 WilliamS wrote: > 1/2 blind NL UB. Table has recently filled up after about 30 minutes of short handed play. I'm on the button with AQo, UTG bets the pot, and its folded to me. The UTG player had recently raised the pot with AJo from small blind with 5 limpers in front. As a result of this play I have him labled as having very liberal raising requirements. (We have nearly identical stacks). I call his bet and we take the flop heads up. First question, is this a raise/fold situation? I will often fold this hand in similar situations, but with the button against against this opponent I really want to see the flop, but hate investing lots of money with this hand. Looking back, I wish I had raised preflop to take control of the hand and possibly find out where I'm at. The flop comes A 10 8 rainbow. He bets the pot. Now I have a decision to make. I beat AJ, A9, Ax, KK, QQ, JJ and I'm beat by AA, AK, A10, A8, 1010, 88, and 108. I raise, thinking I could very well have the best hand and I think if he has a set or 2 pair he will move in on me. He just calls. Now, I'm thinking he has AK and is scared I have him beat, he has a weaker Ace, or KK, QQ, JJ hoping to spike his set. The turn is a J, and he bets the pot putting him all in. (I didn't download my hand history, but the pot was approx. 100 dollars and his bet was 100 dollars putting him all-in) I have approx. that much in front of me. The pot is laying me right at 2:1 to call. His bet perplexes me. If he had a set or two pair on the flop he would've raised me or allowed me to bet the turn for him I think. If he had KQ and was crazy enough to stick around for the turn he wouldn't bet this way. I feel like he had AJ again giving him top 2 pair and not wanting me to catch up wanted to end the hand there. Or, he held a hand like KK QQ and when the turn brought a scare card took the opportunity to push me off my hand. ( The QQ is a likely possibility since the turn gave him 2nd pair and a double belly buster straight draw). Or maybe he made a set of Js and didn't want to give the free card. In conclusion, I folded my hand because in all actuality all I could beat was a complete bluff. AQ, I'm drawing to half, A9 I beat but he has outs, A7 and below but surely he didn't raise that UTG, KK and QQ are all I beat. I think this is a clear fold, but him betting into me clouds the issue for me. What would he call my raise with and then bet into me with on the turn. Most of the hands that beat mine are powerful enough to trap me with. He is risking his entire stack whether he lets me bet for him or he bets out. By him betting out it makes me think he was trying to make me fold. Am I overthinking this? Obviously, it all depends on the opponent, but his play still confuses me. > > Sorry this is so long, any criticisms will be appreciated > > Will Will- I like your analysis of this hand and I think this was a clear fold on the turn. While I agree that any hand that he could have that is really strong to trap you normally wouldn't be played that way, you have to consider the amount of $$ already in the pot and how you reacted to his flop bet (you raised signifying AK or AQ). Additionally, you can't even beat top/top with your hand, so that isn't worth risking all of your chips unless you know this player very very well. I think you can eliminate KQ as his hand. Not even the fishiest of players will bet the pot with a gutter and if he did hit it, he would certainly check into you. Most likely, he had a set on the turn and doesn't want to give you a free shot at hitting the 4th str8 card. There is no question in my mind that you are behind here (probably to TT, JJ, or 88) and his turn bet to me is one where he hopes you have AK or AQ and will call him down, but doesn't want you to get a free shot at a Queen or King for a hand that would beat him. If you have AA, then that is the breaks for him although you probably would not have raised him on the flop with that so he is guessing that he is ahead on the turn. Based on your flop raise, I would not have put you on a set. Preflop, I hate re-raising with this hand, especially to an UTG player. In fact, if the bet is large enough, I probably lay it down without seeing any more cards. Hope this helps. Steve | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 08:47 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 08:38 shorn wrote: > on 21. Oct 2003 07:02 WilliamS wrote: > > 1/2 blind NL UB. Table has recently filled up after about 30 minutes of short > handed play. I'm on the button with AQo, UTG bets the pot, and its folded to me. The > UTG player had recently raised the pot with AJo from small blind with 5 limpers in > front. As a result of this play I have him labled as having very liberal raising > requirements. (We have nearly identical stacks). I call his bet and we take the flop > heads up. First question, is this a raise/fold situation? I will often fold this > hand in similar situations, but with the button against against this opponent I > really want to see the flop, but hate investing lots of money with this hand. > Looking back, I wish I had raised preflop to take control of the hand and possibly > find out where I'm at. The flop comes A 10 8 rainbow. He bets the pot. Now I have a > decision to make. I beat AJ, A9, Ax, KK, QQ, JJ and I'm beat by AA, AK, A10, A8, > 1010, 88, and 108. I raise, thinking I could very well have the best hand and I > think if he has a set or 2 pair he will move in on me. He just calls. Now, I'm > thinking he has AK and is scared I have him beat, he has a weaker Ace, or KK, QQ, JJ > hoping to spike his set. The turn is a J, and he bets the pot putting him all in. (I > didn't download my hand history, but the pot was approx. 100 dollars and his bet was > 100 dollars putting him all-in) I have approx. that much in front of me. The pot is > laying me right at 2:1 to call. His bet perplexes me. If he had a set or two pair > on the flop he would've raised me or allowed me to bet the turn for him I think. If > he had KQ and was crazy enough to stick around for the turn he wouldn't bet this way. > I feel like he had AJ again giving him top 2 pair and not wanting me to catch up > wanted to end the hand there. Or, he held a hand like KK QQ and when the turn > brought a scare card took the opportunity to push me off my hand. ( The QQ is a > likely possibility since the turn gave him 2nd pair and a double belly buster > straight draw). Or maybe he made a set of Js and didn't want to give the free card. > In conclusion, I folded my hand because in all actuality all I could beat was a > complete bluff. AQ, I'm drawing to half, A9 I beat but he has outs, A7 and below but > surely he didn't raise that UTG, KK and QQ are all I beat. I think this is a clear > fold, but him betting into me clouds the issue for me. What would he call my raise > with and then bet into me with on the turn. Most of the hands that beat mine are > powerful enough to trap me with. He is risking his entire stack whether he lets me > bet for him or he bets out. By him betting out it makes me think he was trying to > make me fold. Am I overthinking this? Obviously, it all depends on the opponent, > but his play still confuses me. > > > > Sorry this is so long, any criticisms will be appreciated > > > > Will > > Will- > > I like your analysis of this hand and I think this was a clear fold on the turn. > While I agree that any hand that he could have that is really strong to trap you > normally wouldn't be played that way, you have to consider the amount of $$ already > in the pot and how you reacted to his flop bet (you raised signifying AK or AQ). > Additionally, you can't even beat top/top with your hand, so that isn't worth risking > all of your chips unless you know this player very very well. > > I think you can eliminate KQ as his hand. Not even the fishiest of players will bet > the pot with a gutter and if he did hit it, he would certainly check into you. Most > likely, he had a set on the turn and doesn't want to give you a free shot at hitting > the 4th str8 card. There is no question in my mind that you are behind here > (probably to TT, JJ, or 88) and his turn bet to me is one where he hopes you have AK > or AQ and will call him down, but doesn't want you to get a free shot at a Queen or > King for a hand that would beat him. If you have AA, then that is the breaks for him > although you probably would not have raised him on the flop with that so he is > guessing that he is ahead on the turn. Based on your flop raise, I would not have > put you on a set. > > Preflop, I hate re-raising with this hand, especially to an UTG player. In fact, if > the bet is large enough, I probably lay it down without seeing any more cards. > > Hope this helps. > > Steve why wouldnt you wouldnt reraise a loose UTG shorn? not saying your wrong, just wondering why. ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, shorn, 21. Oct 2003 11:31 | ||
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| Modest- Because it appears that categorizing him as loose was based on seeing him raise ONCE with AJo in EP. I would have to observe someone doing this multiple times (in NL) before I would re-raise without at least the no pair, nut hand. In my experience, AQ can be a trap hand in NL especially when an Ace flops, so I tend to be more cautious with it. Additionally, by calling a pot-sized bet instead of committing more chips, you get to see the flop more cheaply and more than likely can still play the hand heads-up. To me, the re-raising hands pre-flop in NL are AA, KK, QQ, AKs and AK. Everything else (unless you really really know your opponent) aren't worth the extra chips until you see more cards. Steve | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, WilliamS, 21. Oct 2003 16:04 | ||
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| Steve and modest I really appreciate your input on this hand. I find both of you guy's posts very informative and helpful. I really think this is an example of a hand I've been losing a lot of money on. In the past, I haven't had the discipline to lay the hand down. I think this is also a good example of waiting for a better time to get your money in the middle. I think we can argue the merits of folding, calling, or raising preflop in this position. The biggest thing I dislike about calling preflop is not being "in control" of the hand. I feel it is imperative for me to be the one betting, or if I'm calling doing it in a "trap" situation. Again, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to look at this with me. Will | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, modestmice, 22. Oct 2003 03:10 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 16:04 WilliamS wrote: > Steve and modest > > I really appreciate your input on this hand. I find both of you guy's posts very informative and > helpful. > > I really think this is an example of a hand I've been losing a lot of money on. In the past, I > haven't had the discipline to lay the hand down. I think this is also a good example of waiting for > a better time to get your money in the middle. I think we can argue the merits of folding, calling, > or raising preflop in this position. > > The biggest thing I dislike about calling preflop is not being "in control" of the hand. I feel it > is imperative for me to be the one betting, or if I'm calling doing it in a "trap" situation. > > Again, I really appreciate you guys taking the time to look at this with me. > > Will no prob will. im aggresive, so i would re raise here. its clearly a re raise or fold hand to me. calling is not the play. folding is fine though. | ||
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| Re: Please analyze this for me, modestmice, 22. Oct 2003 03:08 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 11:31 shorn wrote: > Modest- > > Because it appears that categorizing him as loose was based on seeing him raise ONCE with AJo > in EP. I would have to observe someone doing this multiple times (in NL) before I would > re-raise without at least the no pair, nut hand. In my experience, AQ can be a trap hand in NL > especially when an Ace flops, so I tend to be more cautious with it. Additionally, by calling > a pot-sized bet instead of committing more chips, you get to see the flop more cheaply and more > than likely can still play the hand heads-up. > > To me, the re-raising hands pre-flop in NL are AA, KK, QQ, AKs and AK. Everything else > (unless you really really know your opponent) aren't worth the extra chips until you see more > cards. > > Steve steve, i was assuming he had more info than that one single play. either way, i would re raise here. your re raising hands to me are too rigid for this situation. i think you would get more info and take more control. thats whats important on this hand, not the starting hands. | ||
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