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Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:41:24 PM PACIFIC |
 the hand that smote me, KJo, 20. Oct 2003 17:24 | ||
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| I'd like some opinions on the hand that sent me home from the NL tournament last night at Hollywood Park. It's the final table, 8 of us left. I'm slightly better than average chipwise with T24000. Chip leader has around T50000, smallest stack around T10000. I'm in the BB, blinds are 1000/2000 with 300 antes. We hadn't seen a flop in a while, it was that kind of game. A fairly aggressive player (and I didn't think he was terribly skilled, he certainly wasn't the best player at the table) in MP comes in with an odd raise- to 4K, double the BB. Most of the steal raises were in the 7-10k range. He has an almost identical stack size as mine. It comes to me, I know I have to read him as either mediocre but barely playable, or a monster. Given what I know of the player, I read for the former. I have Q4s. So here's the question: if I suspect he has a weak hand, but I have a weak hand too, do I go over the top, or do I just call the raise (as it's a minimal investment) and decide what to do on the flop? I don't consider folding an option here. I'll follow up with the rest of the story, of course I already ruined the ending. Eli | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, 4 POKER, 20. Oct 2003 17:46 | ||
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| Hi, If you had it in your mind to call, then I would do just that. Even though he may not be terribly skilled, and he's been showing down weak hands prior to this one.....he still could have chosen to limp in with a very big hand, (Aces perhaps); and maybe he was waiting for somebody to come over the top. (I'm not sure what his thought process was, and/or if it seems like the correct play with 'whatever' he held etc.,etc.) but with so few players left, and knowing that he can easily cripple your chip stack or bust you completely, (because you guys had relatively the same amount)......I would just call the extra small bet and wait to see what the flop brings. Congrats on your nice finish Eli. 4P- | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, shorn, 21. Oct 2003 11:23 | ||
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| I think the answer depends on what you have observed from this opponent. Has been pushed off of pre-flop raises when someone else has shown significant strength? Also, what have been HIS standard raises so far? I realize the table was at 7-10, but if he hadn't been following that, then you have less information. But, assuming that you don't have enough experience with him to know these things, then his small raise smells very fishy (like...please, please someone come over me!). So, I wouldn't be risking all of my chips on this hand. Let's face, your hand stinks and is an underdog to just about any hand that he could raise with (witht he exception of JT or J9 which is pretty weak play from him). So, I think if you are to play, calling is the best option where maybe you hit a Queen or better yet top pair and a 4 flush and hope he has AK or AJ or JJ. I am interested to see how it played out. Steve | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, Paul Stine, 21. Oct 2003 11:31 | ||
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| If you have a weak hand, just fold it and think cool thoughts. Even if the MP player has nothing, neither do you. Why get involved at all with nothing? He has initiative and position. You have a cheese sandwich that has been sitting in a metal lunchbox on the dashboard of your car on a bright, hot, sunny day. I just ain't worth it. Sorry you decided to yield to impatience. Your stack should have gotten you to 3rd or 4th easily. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, shorn, 21. Oct 2003 11:34 | ||
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| Paul- I was going to say that too, but KJo stated that he felt folding wasn't an option. So, I went through my analysis assuming that I only had those two options. My first reaction was to fold as well. Steve | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, Paul Stine, 21. Oct 2003 11:57 | ||
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| on 20. Oct 2003 17:24 KJo wrote: > So here's the question: if I suspect he has a weak hand, but I have a weak hand > too, do I go over the top, or do I just call the raise (as it's a minimal > investment) and decide what to do on the flop? I don't consider folding an > option here. > > I'll follow up with the rest of the story, of course I already ruined the > ending. > > Eli I guess I just don't understand "folding is not an option." What? Are the other kids going to call you names? Throw rocks at you? Tell your mommy you folded to a fishy raise when you held rotten garbage in your hand. Playing this hand in this situation is like deciding to forego waiting for re-inforcements and throwing yourself onto the bayonets of your enemy, just to show that you are a hero. Of course, you are a dead hero, but you sure showed 'em. Hey, look! I think that is a landmine. I think I will jump on it and see. BOOOOOOOOM! Look Ma, I was right (but now I have no legs.) Folding, when you aren't already all-in, is always an option. Here it is probably the best option. When you put yourself all-in (and are covered) the only way to continue is to win. You can only win if you can showdown the best hand. The optimal way to showdown the best hand is to start with the best hand. Ask not, "Can I play this hand?" Ask rather, "Must I play this hand?" Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, Stevolley2, 21. Oct 2003 13:17 | ||
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| I understand that you feel that folding was not an option because of two things, you felt he had a bad hand and you felt you could outplay him. I agree this is a smart strategy and one that must be used in tournaments. But IMO this isn't the "right" opportunity. In order for you to play the hand correctly (safely and profitable in a tournament), you would have to make a large enough raise to force him to make a tough decision. By doing this I feel you risk too many of your chips. You would have to raise to 12,000 and risk 50% of your chips to really make him think about it. Let him make a mistake against someone else. Thought 2, if your goal was to win the tournament at all costs and you felt this was the right opportunity, I would call on the flop and look to get more chips out of him. | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, KJo, 21. Oct 2003 13:59 | ||
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| To answer the question, I didn't consider folding an option since my call of 2000 (less than 10% of my stack) would get me 9400, and odds like that just don't happen much late in a tournament. Has nothing to do with impatience, you have to win regularly to sustain yourself with blinds and antes that high. Nobody sits around waiting for the nuts. I hadn't played with this player very long, he was new to my table. He was friends with another player there who I had pretty good reads on, and from the little I had seen he seemed more aggressive than average, which means that even if he is weak he is less likely to lay down to a big raise than a tighter player. So I called the raise, I did read him for a mediocre hand but I just called since I would like to see the flop before making any big decisions. Remember I had Qs4s. Flop comes down Q92 rainbow, with one spade. I check to him to see what he does, he bets small(2000) and I immediately go all in over the top, knowing that he couldn't possibly call even with a pair of queens, and he wouldn't be slowplaying an overpair. I also know he would have bet much more pre-flop if he had 99 or QQ. I figured him for nothing and he just wanted to take one chance at winning the pot. He calls, turns over Q9, I go home one hand later. So my read of him pre-flop was correct, but I was never 100% sure of my read (who can be) and I was also not 100% sure that if he had a "better than average but not great" hand he would lay it down, for those two reasons I called rather than raised pre-flop. He was smart though and continued to represent a mediocre hand after the flop to trap me, since he got lucky on the flop. So that's that I suppose. Eli on 20. Oct 2003 17:24 KJo wrote: > I'd like some opinions on the hand that sent me home from the NL tournament last > night at Hollywood Park. > > It's the final table, 8 of us left. I'm slightly better than average chipwise > with T24000. Chip leader has around T50000, smallest stack around T10000. I'm > in the BB, blinds are 1000/2000 with 300 antes. > > We hadn't seen a flop in a while, it was that kind of game. A fairly > aggressive player (and I didn't think he was terribly skilled, he certainly > wasn't the best player at the table) in MP comes in with an odd raise- to 4K, > double the BB. Most of the steal raises were in the 7-10k range. He has an > almost identical stack size as mine. It comes to me, I know I have to read him > as either mediocre but barely playable, or a monster. Given what I know of the > player, I read for the former. I have Q4s. > > So here's the question: if I suspect he has a weak hand, but I have a weak hand > too, do I go over the top, or do I just call the raise (as it's a minimal > investment) and decide what to do on the flop? I don't consider folding an > option here. > > I'll follow up with the rest of the story, of course I already ruined the > ending. > > Eli | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 14:02 | ||
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| on 21. Oct 2003 13:59 KJo wrote: > To answer the question, I didn't consider folding an option since my call of 2000 > (less than 10% of my stack) would get me 9400, and odds like that just don't happen > much late in a tournament. Has nothing to do with impatience, you have to win > regularly to sustain yourself with blinds and antes that high. Nobody sits around > waiting for the nuts. > > I hadn't played with this player very long, he was new to my table. He was friends > with another player there who I had pretty good reads on, and from the little I had > seen he seemed more aggressive than average, which means that even if he is weak he > is less likely to lay down to a big raise than a tighter player. > > So I called the raise, I did read him for a mediocre hand but I just called since I > would like to see the flop before making any big decisions. Remember I had Qs4s. > Flop comes down Q92 rainbow, with one spade. I check to him to see what he does, he > bets small(2000) and I immediately go all in over the top, knowing that he couldn't > possibly call even with a pair of queens, and he wouldn't be slowplaying an overpair. > I also know he would have bet much more pre-flop if he had 99 or QQ. I figured him > for nothing and he just wanted to take one chance at winning the pot. He calls, > turns over Q9, I go home one hand later. > > So my read of him pre-flop was correct, but I was never 100% sure of my read (who > can be) and I was also not 100% sure that if he had a "better than average but not > great" hand he would lay it down, for those two reasons I called rather than raised > pre-flop. He was smart though and continued to represent a mediocre hand after the > flop to trap me, since he got lucky on the flop. > > So that's that I suppose. > > Eli > > on 20. Oct 2003 17:24 KJo wrote: > > I'd like some opinions on the hand that sent me home from the NL tournament last > > > night at Hollywood Park. > > > > It's the final table, 8 of us left. I'm slightly better than average chipwise > > with T24000. Chip leader has around T50000, smallest stack around T10000. I'm > > in the BB, blinds are 1000/2000 with 300 antes. > > > > We hadn't seen a flop in a while, it was that kind of game. A fairly > > aggressive player (and I didn't think he was terribly skilled, he certainly > > wasn't the best player at the table) in MP comes in with an odd raise- to 4K, > > double the BB. Most of the steal raises were in the 7-10k range. He has an > > almost identical stack size as mine. It comes to me, I know I have to read him > > as either mediocre but barely playable, or a monster. Given what I know of the > > player, I read for the former. I have Q4s. > > > > So here's the question: if I suspect he has a weak hand, but I have a weak hand > > too, do I go over the top, or do I just call the raise (as it's a minimal > > investment) and decide what to do on the flop? I don't consider folding an > > option here. > > > > I'll follow up with the rest of the story, of course I already ruined the > > ending. > > > > Eli so KoJack, what happened in the hand dude ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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| Re: the hand that smote me, KJo, 21. Oct 2003 16:36 | ||
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| What do you mean? It was all there, he had two pair on the flop and all I had was a lousy pair of queens, he won. I was drawing deader than dead, I needed either running spades or running 4's. Eli on 21. Oct 2003 14:02 modestmice wrote: > > so KoJack, what happened in the hand dude > > ----------------------------------------------------- > "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with > the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
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