|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 8/30/2008 12:04:21 AM PACIFIC |
 Limping with medium strong hands preflop, Formless, 20. Oct 2003 09:16 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This weekend I ran a bunch of simulations mixing up raising and limping preflop with medium strong hands like AJ, KQ, ATs, 99-66 in unraised pots. I've found some evidence to suggest its generally more profitable to limp with these hands preflop. This seems to hold true whether the pot has limpers or not, and regardless of position. This probably doesn't work in no-foldem games, but seems to apply to most other game types. I've had the tendency to bang these hands preflop whether the pot has limpers or not, virtually eliminating limping from my game. Raise or fold poker, right? Also, I like acting last on all future betting rounds. But I think it is possible to be too aggressive preflop. The effect I've observed in sims is big enough for me to conclude that raising these hands is a big leak in my game that costs me a lot of money. Limping has many advantages, chief among them getting dominated hands to call or even raise behind you. Whichever option you choose affects your play on later streets, and has a big effect on variance. Holdem is about domination, and limping with early with ATs will get A9o to call or even raise behind you when your opponent would have folded to a raise. Holdem is also about winning really big pots, which is hard to do when you raise these types of hands. This is a pretty fundamental shift in poker strategy for me so if anyone has any comments I'd love to to hear them... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, shorn, 20. Oct 2003 09:37 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Despite the simulations, I can't say that I agree with the thought process. All of the hands that you mention are hands that should only be played in position (so no limping in EP) and if there are no limpers, then I think that raising is the best play. Hold'em isn't necessarily about winning big pots...it is about winning the most money and the fight starts by winning the blinds. What might be more of a leak is that when you raise with these hands you may have a tendency to follow through for too long when nothing flops. This is where you can hemmorage a lot of bets when you don't have the best of it. I am not saying that limping with these hands preflop should never be an option. But, hands like AJ, KJ, AT, and KQ do not play well multiway and if you are going to play them at all, I think raising will win you more money long run, provided you know when to dump them on the flop. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, PairTheBoard, 20. Oct 2003 11:40 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense Formless. There are two problems with these hands in EP. One is the bad position. The other is the number of unheard from hands behind you - including the blinds. A raise with one of these hands is only good if it is the best hand among those yet unheard from. In EP, too often it is not. Playing heads up against a better hand is long run very costly. If the game is loose though, it may be worth the risk because you also have a good chance of playing against inferior hands. By raising you tend to eliminate this loose-game benifit while just exposing more of your chips to the risk which still exists. Loose players can have great hands just as easy as tight ones. However, this reasoning breaks down if the game is super-loose. In a super-loose game your raise is still likely to be called by inferior hands and may in fact help to reduce the field to a more optimum number. You might ask yourself. How many players would I like to play this hand against and how many am I likely to get if I raise or just limp? I think it depends on just how loose the game is. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, Formless, 21. Oct 2003 11:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I've done some more thinking about it and I guess it comes down to how you mix up your preflop hands, and more importantly how you play them postflop. It's probably overstating to say its a big leak, but it's a useful play I think in certain situations. And I agree that its post flop play that costs you big money, not really marginal raise vs. call scenarios preflop. Back to raise or fold for me, with the odd limp when the situation calls for it.... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, LuckyCat, 21. Oct 2003 11:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Formless, I agree with limping with these hands, especially in a loose game where your opponents will virtually never muck the blinds, and will continue to make errors postflop while you will only continue with a hand like KQ or AJ if you hit the flop. In a tight game where you can either isolate the blinds or even just pick up the blinds, I think raising has its merits. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 11:24 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm good article 'bout Morton's Theorem | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 11:27 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 21. Oct 2003 11:24 modestmice wrote: > http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm > > good article 'bout Morton's Theorem and Lou's http://www.loukrieger.com/articles/morton.htm | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, gary ford, 21. Oct 2003 12:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 21. Oct 2003 11:24 modestmice wrote: > http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm > > good article 'bout Morton's Theorem thanks , Modest--very interesting article---the crank | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, 4 POKER, 21. Oct 2003 12:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 21. Oct 2003 12:42 gary ford wrote: > on 21. Oct 2003 11:24 modestmice wrote: > > http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm > > > > good article 'bout Morton's Theorem > > thanks , Modest--very interesting article---the crank ("Fuel the boom" sounds much better). though "crank" is starting to grow on me:) | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, gary ford, 21. Oct 2003 12:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 21. Oct 2003 12:46 4 POKER wrote: > on 21. Oct 2003 12:42 gary ford wrote: > > on 21. Oct 2003 11:24 modestmice wrote: > > > http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm > > > > > > good article 'bout Morton's Theorem > > > > thanks , Modest--very interesting article---the crank > > ("Fuel the boom" sounds much better). though "crank" is starting to grow on me:) I also considered "geezer" | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Limping with medium strong hands preflop, modestmice, 21. Oct 2003 13:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 21. Oct 2003 12:53 gary ford wrote: > on 21. Oct 2003 12:46 4 POKER wrote: > > on 21. Oct 2003 12:42 gary ford wrote: > > > on 21. Oct 2003 11:24 modestmice wrote: > > > > http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/caro06.htm > > > > > > > > good article 'bout Morton's Theorem > > > > > > thanks , Modest--very interesting article---the crank > > > > ("Fuel the boom" sounds much better). though "crank" is starting to grow on me:) > > I also considered "geezer" i thought i was outta line calling u a crank, but then i found out u really were...and that u enjoy being a crank! cool...i like honest people (now that LJH dude, i just dont know....) ----------------------------------------------------- "I prefer talking with old persons of the female sex who peddle family gossip; next, with the insane-and last, with very sensible people" -S. Kierkegaard | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|